Trinity Reformation

Transcript

i have been really excited over over this a development that i've seen this a development that i've seen growing growing in in and around the the churches and around the the churches in the united states and canada over the in the united states and canada over the last number of years last number of years some of you might remember it was back some of you might remember it was back in in 2010 2010 a book that i believe made the new york a book that i believe made the new york times bestseller list times bestseller list uh it was a book which i'm sharing on uh it was a book which i'm sharing on the screen now which you can find on the screen now which you can find on amazon amazon and it was a book written by a a jewish and it was a book written by a a jewish man man by the name of richard rubinstein he was by the name of richard rubinstein he was a biblical scholar a biblical scholar and he traced the development and he traced the development of the history of the history of the the theory of the the theory and i use that word as opposed to the and i use that word as opposed to the doctrine the theory of the trinity doctrine the theory of the trinity he talked about the controversy that he talked about the controversy that arose arose in the in the um um through you know the the mid 300s 300 through you know the the mid 300s 300 years after the resurrection of jesus years after the resurrection of jesus and he talked about in this book he and he talked about in this book he talked about how talked about how hebraic thought hebraic thought was was being changed being changed so that greek thought so that greek thought became predominant in the church became predominant in the church um i remember david uh david is on with um i remember david uh david is on with us tonight david levin i remember you us tonight david levin i remember you sharing a really interesting paper with sharing a really interesting paper with me that you had written about a soul me that you had written about a soul [Music] [Music] and how there were these greek thoughts and how there were these greek thoughts that began to infiltrate that began to infiltrate the brotherhood the brotherhood and as a result of that and as a result of that theories like the trinity and like the theories like the trinity and like the eternal soul began to develop these are eternal soul began to develop these are things that were not taught in the things that were not taught in the scriptures and this man scriptures and this man uh richard rubinstein uh richard rubinstein wrote about it and sort of created a um wrote about it and sort of created a um you know a real interest in the subject you know a real interest in the subject so i pulled this up this is the amazon so i pulled this up this is the amazon uh this is you know just my amazon uh this is you know just my amazon screen i know i think jim sullivan screen i know i think jim sullivan you've read this book i think a number you've read this book i think a number of us have probably seen it um the of us have probably seen it um the boston globe did boston globe did did a write-up on it you know of course did a write-up on it you know of course we're in boston so i remember it and uh we're in boston so i remember it and uh you know i'll just just highlight this you know i'll just just highlight this section a splendid lead dramatic story section a splendid lead dramatic story rubenstein has turned one of the great rubenstein has turned one of the great fights of history fights of history into an engrossing story and and as a into an engrossing story and and as a result if memory serves me correctly result if memory serves me correctly this book was on the new york times this book was on the new york times bestseller list in the non-fiction bestseller list in the non-fiction section jim do you have any comments on section jim do you have any comments on it i i know you've read it and we've it i i know you've read it and we've talked about it in the past talked about it in the past uh i just found it as a really uh i just found it as a really interesting book interesting book uh it does uh go through the uh it does uh go through the the remarkable battles that went on the remarkable battles that went on over the trinity bank and was it the over the trinity bank and was it the second or third century i came up with a second or third century i came up with a date exactly yeah you know date exactly yeah you know you know there was this contraries we'll you know there was this contraries we'll talk a little bit about that tonight god talk a little bit about that tonight god willing yeah um willing yeah um so so here's the uh here's the follow-up to here's the uh here's the follow-up to that that um there's a relatively new book out um there's a relatively new book out it's a book called christ it's a book called christ before the creeds before the creeds it's written by a guy by the name of it's written by a guy by the name of jeff double i bought this a couple of jeff double i bought this a couple of weeks ago also on amazon weeks ago also on amazon um um and what i find really fascinating is and what i find really fascinating is that when this book arrived and i began that when this book arrived and i began to read it there was a forward to read it there was a forward and the forward to this and the forward to this was written by none other than the same was written by none other than the same richard rubinstein that wrote when jesus richard rubinstein that wrote when jesus became god became god okay okay and i i'd like to just read one section and i i'd like to just read one section of of this book and this will give you of of this book and this will give you an idea as to why i think we are at a an idea as to why i think we are at a really interesting moment really interesting moment in history in history and why i think we may as a and why i think we may as a unitarian as opposed to trinitarian unitarian as opposed to trinitarian believers believers have an opportunity to share the gospel have an opportunity to share the gospel with a lot of people with a lot of people who for the first time in my memory are who for the first time in my memory are really questioning really questioning the doctrine or the theory of the the doctrine or the theory of the trinity trinity so richard rubinstein the guy that wrote so richard rubinstein the guy that wrote that first book we quoted he wrote the that first book we quoted he wrote the forward and this one christ before the forward and this one christ before the creeds and this is what he said he says creeds and this is what he said he says after that book was published after that book was published i had the opportunity to speak in many i had the opportunity to speak in many christian churches and discovered to my christian churches and discovered to my surprise surprise that controversy about the trinity was that controversy about the trinity was very much alive very much alive even among the members of nominally even among the members of nominally trinitarian congregations trinitarian congregations a wide variety of believers came to tell a wide variety of believers came to tell that despite their daily or weekly that despite their daily or weekly recitation of the nicean creed this was recitation of the nicean creed this was that creed that developed in the 300s uh that creed that developed in the 300s uh you know to sort of formalize the theory you know to sort of formalize the theory of the trinity and make it make it you of the trinity and make it make it you know dogma know dogma despite these people reciting the the despite these people reciting the the nicene creed or other statements of nicene creed or other statements of quote-unquote orthodox belief quote-unquote orthodox belief they either did not understand the they either did not understand the meaning of the creed meaning of the creed affirmed the trinity in some affirmed the trinity in some metaphorical sense or disbelieved the metaphorical sense or disbelieved the doctrine outright doctrine outright and so he talks in this in this forward and so he talks in this in this forward about how many people are coming to this about how many people are coming to this idea that you know the trinity just idea that you know the trinity just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me now now more recently there has been a more recently there has been a development where a number of development where a number of non-trinitarian churches non-trinitarian churches have gotten together to form have gotten together to form a loose alliance a loose alliance where they are trying to normalize where they are trying to normalize the idea that a belief in the trinity the idea that a belief in the trinity doesn't make sense doesn't make sense you see you see when you go back in history and you look when you go back in history and you look at how at how non-trinitarian believers were treated non-trinitarian believers were treated i mean it's pretty dreadful i mean it's pretty dreadful [Music] [Music] you know it became such that if you you know it became such that if you disavowed the trinity you could be and disavowed the trinity you could be and would be would be burned at the stake burned at the stake and if there were and if there were writings that were against the doctrine writings that were against the doctrine or the theory of the trinity they were or the theory of the trinity they were burned you know this is back in the 300s burned you know this is back in the 300s and beyond okay and beyond okay but you know as christodelphines but you know as christodelphines we we in a very minor and small comparison to in a very minor and small comparison to that that have experienced i think in the past have experienced i think in the past what it's like to be labeled what it's like to be labeled a cult a cult or labeled in some derogatory way or labeled in some derogatory way because we do not believe because we do not believe that jesus is god the son we believe that jesus is god the son we believe that he is the son of god that he is the son of god that as christadelphians we believe that that as christadelphians we believe that only the father is god only the father is god is god and as a result of that you know is god and as a result of that you know people like us in the past and you know people like us in the past and you know to some extent still have been treated to some extent still have been treated with scorn with scorn but that's changing and there is this but that's changing and there is this new development where a lot of new development where a lot of non-trinitarian non-trinitarian followers of jesus followers of jesus are trying to normalize the idea that are trying to normalize the idea that questioning the trinity is natural questioning the trinity is natural so what i want to show now is a map so what i want to show now is a map this map that you see is a map of this map that you see is a map of people primarily in the us although we people primarily in the us although we can can we can scale out and see that there are we can scale out and see that there are countries represented all over the globe countries represented all over the globe can you share steve sorry oh i'm sorry i can you share steve sorry oh i'm sorry i thought i was sharon thanks jimbo thought i was sharon thanks jimbo um um so this is a map so this is a map of this loose alliance it's called the of this loose alliance it's called the uh uh unitarian christian alliance unitarian christian alliance and people who believe that only god is and people who believe that only god is the father the father can say yeah i'm a believer in that and can say yeah i'm a believer in that and they can put themselves on a list they can put themselves on a list so that other so that other christians who are in trinitarian christians who are in trinitarian churches can reach out churches can reach out and find like-minded individuals and find like-minded individuals and i think it's fascinating and i think it's fascinating so looking at this map and and zooming so looking at this map and and zooming in a little bit in a little bit it's really quite telling how it's really quite telling how many individuals many individuals are starting to proclaim their belief are starting to proclaim their belief that only the father that only the father is god is god so um so um one of the things that i did not long one of the things that i did not long ago ago was i um i put my name on this on this was i um i put my name on this on this list and if you are a member you can do list and if you are a member you can do such a thing such a thing and you can see other people in other and you can see other people in other parts of the the region in which you parts of the the region in which you live live who also say i believe that only the who also say i believe that only the only god is the father only god is the father and i think that this may prove to be a and i think that this may prove to be a great preaching opportunity great preaching opportunity for our community for our community a great way for us to proclaim a great way for us to proclaim who we are who we are and what we believe and to become a and what we believe and to become a welcoming environment for people who welcoming environment for people who feel feel lost lost in their trinitarian churches in their trinitarian churches so a year or so ago with the approval of so a year or so ago with the approval of uh our arranging board i also uh our arranging board i also listed our meeting house our listed our meeting house our christadelphian ecclesia christadelphian ecclesia as a as a non-trinitarian church as a way of you non-trinitarian church as a way of you know advertising as a way of networking know advertising as a way of networking with other folks with other folks and there's a description here and there's a description here uh about our ecclesia uh about our ecclesia and what makes us different it gives us and what makes us different it gives us our website a little featured video that our website a little featured video that we put up there and meeting times we put up there and meeting times and if you are um and if you are um you know if you're listening to our you know if you're listening to our midweek class tonight from an ecclesia midweek class tonight from an ecclesia other than uh other than the boston other than uh other than the boston meeting you know the christophians in meeting you know the christophians in stoughton i'd encourage you to think stoughton i'd encourage you to think about it about it because uh it is a way that we can uh i because uh it is a way that we can uh i think think share the gospel share the gospel so first of all any questions or any so first of all any questions or any comments is this a surprise to folks brother steve this is dana pratt and i was just going to was just going to say that say that when we started the bible education when we started the bible education center in urbana so it would be like 13 center in urbana so it would be like 13 years ago now years ago now local churches did kind of peg us as local churches did kind of peg us as they're not trinitarian you know right they're not trinitarian you know right but but hopefully people there remember but but hopefully people there remember that and actually one that and actually one woman who is now a sister deliberately woman who is now a sister deliberately came even though she was told like by came even though she was told like by her pastor or whoever not to come her pastor or whoever not to come because we weren't trinitarian so because we weren't trinitarian so your thoughts are very intriguing in your thoughts are very intriguing in that light that light yeah i do think that there is a yeah i do think that there is a potential here and you know i don't want potential here and you know i don't want to put the to put the the cart ahead of the horse but you know the cart ahead of the horse but you know if you go back in history to the if you go back in history to the formation of the christadelphian formation of the christadelphian movement movement you know it came out of a larger you know it came out of a larger reformation reformation so there was the stone campbell so there was the stone campbell reformation movement and this is where reformation movement and this is where there were a lot of people who were there were a lot of people who were trying to who were leaving the trying to who were leaving the traditional churches to get back to traditional churches to get back to sort of quote-unquote sort of quote-unquote historical christianity historical christianity when i talked to my friends and they when i talked to my friends and they asked me you know what makes you know my asked me you know what makes you know my church different i will often explain to church different i will often explain to them that you know we are trying to get them that you know we are trying to get back to original christianity before you back to original christianity before you know a lot of the traditions set in know a lot of the traditions set in and it and i think it captures the and it and i think it captures the imagination of a lot of people imagination of a lot of people particularly particularly in this day and age where logic in this day and age where logic seems to be playing a very important seems to be playing a very important role role in one's belief there are many people in one's belief there are many people who are leaving their churches because who are leaving their churches because it doesn't make sense to them it doesn't make sense to them they see they see inconsistencies they see things that are inconsistencies they see things that are just incongruous they they see things just incongruous they they see things where you know god is eternal and yet where you know god is eternal and yet jesus died on the cross and they say i jesus died on the cross and they say i don't get it i don't understand it don't get it i don't understand it right right and so this whole environment that we're and so this whole environment that we're in now i think is almost like a mini in now i think is almost like a mini reformation movement reformation movement where a number of people are beginning where a number of people are beginning to leave their churches and this to leave their churches and this particular book that i just got particular book that i just got is a book that was written is a book that was written as a way of as a way of opening up dialogue opening up dialogue with with individuals who are questioning the individuals who are questioning the trinitarian belief that they were handed trinitarian belief that they were handed as you know in their churches and in as you know in their churches and in their families over the years their families over the years so so yeah john hey john yeah john hey john yeah i have a comment i'm very familiar yeah i have a comment i'm very familiar with this group the alliance um with this group the alliance um at uh one point they uh wanted to get at uh one point they uh wanted to get the tidings magazine the tidings magazine as for us to list in it as for us to list in it yeah and so we did a very thorough study yeah and so we did a very thorough study of it unfortunately of it unfortunately uh if you look through uh their uh if you look through uh their literature and their their stand they literature and their their stand they also believe in the devil also believe in the devil which creates and i think that's creates which creates and i think that's creates a problem yeah for sure a problem yeah for sure let me just finish please it creates a let me just finish please it creates a problem for the official community problem for the official community magazine um as much as we would like to magazine um as much as we would like to share their beliefs with the share their beliefs with the unitarian police and crime um we just unitarian police and crime um we just try to be a little bit careful that we try to be a little bit careful that we don't end up don't end up inadvertently sponsoring other faults inadvertently sponsoring other faults doctrine doctrine yeah and i think that's that's really a yeah and i think that's that's really a very important uh comment john very important uh comment john and and i want to be really crystal and and i want to be really crystal clear about this there are differences clear about this there are differences between these different denominations between these different denominations that are sort of joining the uca there that are sort of joining the uca there are some who believe in a personal devil are some who believe in a personal devil there are some that believe in spirit there are some that believe in spirit gifts there are things that there are gifts there are things that there are some teachings that are very you know some teachings that are very you know clearly off from the teachings of clearly off from the teachings of scripture scripture and so and so the the reason that i have uh the the reason that i have uh put my name on this is not because you put my name on this is not because you know i'm like an ecumenical guy that know i'm like an ecumenical guy that says it doesn't matter what you believe says it doesn't matter what you believe but because i think it's a it's but because i think it's a it's hopefully a way just to make a hopefully a way just to make a connection with somebody that that may connection with somebody that that may be seeking be seeking does that does that make sense john to does that does that make sense john to you you um um yes and no okay yes and no okay it may make sense to you as an it may make sense to you as an individual i'm not so sure i would be in individual i'm not so sure i would be in favor of myoclesia favor of myoclesia linking up with that um that linking up with that um that alliance because of the other beliefs alliance because of the other beliefs and i certainly was opposed to tidings and i certainly was opposed to tidings doing it because we get enough flack for doing it because we get enough flack for so many other things as you can be so many other things as you can be sure the last thing we need to be sure the last thing we need to be accused of is associating with a group accused of is associating with a group that believes in the devil so that believes in the devil so there's a difference i mean i i could there's a difference i mean i i could see myself signing into that for making see myself signing into that for making connections but i can't see connections but i can't see my organization my organization is more official is more official and i think you need to be a little bit and i think you need to be a little bit careful about doing that yeah careful about doing that yeah so i'm quite familiar with the trinity i so i'm quite familiar with the trinity i am am when i was dating mary when i was dating mary no when i went dating mary we went to to no when i went dating mary we went to to see the local priest see the local priest and he uh he made a big spiel about the and he uh he made a big spiel about the trinity and i told him point blank i trinity and i told him point blank i didn't believe in it and i started going didn't believe in it and i started going and he bodily threw me out of the and he bodily threw me out of the rectory rectory so if you if you've ever been thrown so if you if you've ever been thrown down on a bunch of steps by a six foot down on a bunch of steps by a six foot four priest um four priest um and in those days i didn't weigh what i and in those days i didn't weigh what i weighed today um weighed today um and i was lucky to get out of there live and i was lucky to get out of there live anyway thank you compared to being burned at the stake in the old days john the stake in the old days john right well anyway thank you steve just a right well anyway thank you steve just a little snide comment here thank you for little snide comment here thank you for your patience some people will get it whoever you know you're going to you're going to get that last one god bless you get that last one god bless you okay so i think that's i think that's okay so i think that's i think that's very fair pushback dave david did you very fair pushback dave david did you have something yeah a couple things uh have something yeah a couple things uh if i heard right you said that that that if i heard right you said that that that made that the first book rubenstein's made that the first book rubenstein's book made the new york times bestseller book made the new york times bestseller list in 2010 list in 2010 i thought so i think maybe before that i thought so i think maybe before that i'm sorry and i remember reading that i'm sorry and i remember reading that like ages ago well well before 2012. like ages ago well well before 2012. okay look was older than that anyway okay look was older than that anyway yeah yeah rubenstein again as i remember is rubenstein again as i remember is actually a lawyer by profession actually a lawyer by profession and uh somewhat of a semi-professional and uh somewhat of a semi-professional uh historical research but he he went at uh historical research but he he went at it with the like a lawyerly uh it with the like a lawyerly uh a mindset which is one reason why that a mindset which is one reason why that book is so so thoroughly uh documented book is so so thoroughly uh documented just i highly recommend that book just i highly recommend that book uh a couple other things i'm sure you'll uh a couple other things i'm sure you'll get to this get to this the issue of the issue of one god in the trinity or one god in the trinity or rubenstein's book is about the divinity rubenstein's book is about the divinity of jesus there's nothing at all about of jesus there's nothing at all about the trinity the trinity that was a separate issue about the holy that was a separate issue about the holy ghost thing yeah so you're this group ghost thing yeah so you're this group you're talking about you're talking about when you say anti-trinitarian are they when you say anti-trinitarian are they dumping the the holy spirit thing too there's got to be a lot of weird things about okay it's not god but i'm sure about okay it's not god but i'm sure they don't see them like we do they don't see them like we do i think some of them do i think some of them do yeah this particular issue i would yeah this particular issue i would advise you to look i mean if you're advise you to look i mean if you're interested i can share some thoughts interested i can share some thoughts about uh additional resources there's a about uh additional resources there's a guy by the name of dale tuggy who's guy by the name of dale tuggy who's terrific a guy by the name of sean terrific a guy by the name of sean finnegan finnegan um there are a whole bunch of other um there are a whole bunch of other really good guys i don't want this class really good guys i don't want this class to be just about this group i just was to be just about this group i just was trying to point this idea out that there trying to point this idea out that there seems to be a movement among people to seems to be a movement among people to explore explore and to have permission to explore the and to have permission to explore the idea that it's okay idea that it's okay to reject the trinity to reject the trinity it's it's a growing movement okay it's it's a growing movement okay and we've seen these sorts of movements and we've seen these sorts of movements historically in the past such as in the historically in the past such as in the 1700s and the 1800s which where we saw 1700s and the 1800s which where we saw the chrysodelphian community sort of the chrysodelphian community sort of grow out of the stone this campbell grow out of the stone this campbell stone movement stone movement so with that said so with that said um um what i would suggest is in our class what i would suggest is in our class tonight tonight i would like to try and give us all some i would like to try and give us all some talking points or some talking points or some thoughts about thoughts about how we might engage people how we might engage people in a way that they hear us in a way that in a way that they hear us in a way that gives them sort of permission to explore gives them sort of permission to explore this idea this idea and i'm going to quote and i'm going to quote from this this book one more time from this this book one more time and he said and he said this is rubenstein and his forward this is rubenstein and his forward and he says of the author while he's and he says of the author while he's clearly advocating his own clearly advocating his own non-trinitarian point of view non-trinitarian point of view the author clearly disclaims any the author clearly disclaims any intention to judge readers harshly intention to judge readers harshly who disagree with him who disagree with him his arguments are intended his arguments are intended to convince to convince not convert not convert to those who've not come to the same to those who've not come to the same conclusions conclusions about this challenging issue about this challenging issue and i think that for me and i think that for me that that that's comfortable for me that's comfortable for me you know to have a discussion where i'm you know to have a discussion where i'm i'm looking to convince people as i'm looking to convince people as opposed to convert them and i think it opposed to convert them and i think it just go it's it's about just go it's it's about the the softening of language the the softening of language so with that in mind um let me share so with that in mind um let me share with you a couple of additional slides with you a couple of additional slides um um what you see on the screen here is a what you see on the screen here is a quote from brother dennis galette quote from brother dennis galette uh in his pamphlet which is probably in uh in his pamphlet which is probably in every christianity neclesia that i've every christianity neclesia that i've ever walked into one bible many churches ever walked into one bible many churches why why right you you probably remember seeing right you you probably remember seeing that pamphlet that pamphlet and he says in that he says in this and he says in that he says in this pamphlet today religious controversy is pamphlet today religious controversy is reckoned to be out of date almost reckoned to be out of date almost something to be ashamed of something to be ashamed of intransigent positions are taken less intransigent positions are taken less often moderation is the key word and often moderation is the key word and anything which is likely to fan the anything which is likely to fan the flames of controversy flames of controversy is disapproved is disapproved and i think that you know this is dennis and i think that you know this is dennis galette probably writing in the 50s and galette probably writing in the 50s and and you know you think about how and you know you think about how our young people our young people uh experience uh experience um um you know these sorts of things today you know these sorts of things today it's something that that a lot of people it's something that that a lot of people avoid avoid there's no discussion about doctrine there's no discussion about doctrine there's no discussion about these things there's no discussion about these things for fear of coming across like some for fear of coming across like some religious quote-unquote bigot religious quote-unquote bigot and and i think that as we have these i think that as we have these discussions if we find ourselves in a discussions if we find ourselves in a position to share conversation with position to share conversation with people who might be questioning their people who might be questioning their traditional beliefs traditional beliefs i'd suggest there are two important i'd suggest there are two important things to consider things to consider the first is the first is you know we all fall short right you know we all fall short right and so we ought to have these and so we ought to have these conversations with people with uh conversations with people with uh humility humility and with a sense of grace and with a sense of grace and we've got to give people um the room and we've got to give people um the room to turn around you know we can't be so to turn around you know we can't be so close to their face battling people over close to their face battling people over doctrine we've gotta i think give them doctrine we've gotta i think give them an opportunity to consider these things an opportunity to consider these things so that it's comfortable they can save so that it's comfortable they can save face by making changes face by making changes um um thanks for that reminder phil okay give me just a second everybody the the second reminder that i want to the the second reminder that i want to uh review uh review is this idea that we we can't come across as self-righteous self-righteous because if we do people won't hear us because if we do people won't hear us and all we have to do is look to how and all we have to do is look to how jesus treated the scribes and the jesus treated the scribes and the pharisees you know luke chapter 18 says pharisees you know luke chapter 18 says you know to some who were confident of you know to some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else on everyone else and we've got to be really careful and we've got to be really careful brothers and sisters i hope it's okay brothers and sisters i hope it's okay for me to be this blunt for me to be this blunt we've got to be really careful we've got to be really careful that we don't come across this way that we don't come across this way because if we do because if we do people will just turn us off i think people will just turn us off i think they won't hear us they won't hear us and and one of the we've inherited i think a lot one of the we've inherited i think a lot of tremendous things of tremendous things in our community in our community we we have an understanding of the we we have an understanding of the gospel which i think you know we have to gospel which i think you know we have to just just be so appreciative of of the early be so appreciative of of the early brothers and sisters who sort of dis brothers and sisters who sort of dis rediscovered these things rediscovered these things but one of the unfortunate things that but one of the unfortunate things that we seem to have inherited in my opinion we seem to have inherited in my opinion is this is this culture of debate culture of debate that uh was so prevalent back in the that uh was so prevalent back in the 1800s when when people for 1800s when when people for entertainment's sake would go to the entertainment's sake would go to the birmingham town hall to see you know birmingham town hall to see you know these debaters with gloves off going at these debaters with gloves off going at it it and that and that environment is one that is not environment is one that is not compelling in my in my opinion again compelling in my in my opinion again to con to changing people's minds it to con to changing people's minds it might win an argument might win an argument but it doesn't often but it doesn't often allow people to you know allow people to you know to change to change so christadelphia obviously came out of so christadelphia obviously came out of this reformation movement we talked this reformation movement we talked about this there was this great interest about this there was this great interest in doctrinal differences and debate was in doctrinal differences and debate was as much a sport as an entertainment as as much a sport as an entertainment as it was a search for understanding this idea of caustic language that we sometimes see in our community is i sometimes see in our community is i think a problem it might have been the think a problem it might have been the norm in in the early eighteen hundreds norm in in the early eighteen hundreds we see it in some of the early christian we see it in some of the early christian writings but we've got to be careful writings but we've got to be careful that we don't carry that sort of that we don't carry that sort of attitude in our discussions today and attitude in our discussions today and what i would say is we can just i mean i what i would say is we can just i mean i don't want to pick on brother uh brother don't want to pick on brother uh brother roberts roberts but you know this sort of language i but you know this sort of language i think is an example of what we want to think is an example of what we want to avoid he says you know to his credit avoid he says you know to his credit i've been endeavoring to get back to i've been endeavoring to get back to apostolic uh distinctiveness i'm trying apostolic uh distinctiveness i'm trying to get back to original christianity to get back to original christianity and to carry back as many with me as and to carry back as many with me as possible i want to you know share the possible i want to you know share the gospel with as many people as possible gospel with as many people as possible but then he says i will not stand by but then he says i will not stand by inertly to see knaves hypocrites and inertly to see knaves hypocrites and brethren too charitable to fight the brethren too charitable to fight the good fight of faith make boyd this good fight of faith make boyd this endeavor right and i don't know if it's endeavor right and i don't know if it's just sort of a difference in uh in just sort of a difference in uh in cultural times but i read that and i cultural times but i read that and i can't imagine ever talking to somebody can't imagine ever talking to somebody and calling them a nave and calling them a nave you know uh i'm not sure even what that you know uh i'm not sure even what that word means quite frankly word means quite frankly so uh so uh so that's an example and then so that's an example and then when when when brother roberts or brother dr tom when brother roberts or brother dr tom brother thomas's uh book is uh done when brother thomas's uh book is uh done when he wrote uh i think was brother roberts he wrote uh i think was brother roberts wrote this dr thomas's life and works wrote this dr thomas's life and works there was a uh an editorial or in the there was a uh an editorial or in the preface there was this remark when they preface there was this remark when they republished that work republished that work modern readers it's almost like a like a modern readers it's almost like a like a disclaimer like a uh you know disclaimer like a uh you know a parental warning an advisory a parental warning an advisory uh the editor of the of the book wrote uh the editor of the of the book wrote modern readers may think that dr thomas modern readers may think that dr thomas sometimes wrote or spoke of his sometimes wrote or spoke of his opponents rather uncharitably opponents rather uncharitably if they do they should bear in mind that if they do they should bear in mind that the doctor lived in an age when most the doctor lived in an age when most controversialists fought with their controversialists fought with their gloves off right gloves off right um um in elvis israel we see a similar thing in elvis israel we see a similar thing in the 15th edition the preface included in the 15th edition the preface included this sort of disclaimer this sort of disclaimer at the time when it was written frank's at the time when it was written frank's speech expressed in robust language was speech expressed in robust language was indulged in without offense indulged in without offense and in this matter the book reflects its and in this matter the book reflects its age age and all i'm saying is we've got to you and all i'm saying is we've got to you know we have so much to be thankful for know we have so much to be thankful for when it comes to what we've inherited when it comes to what we've inherited from these brothers and sisters so long from these brothers and sisters so long ago that shared you know this ago that shared you know this rediscovery of gospel truth but we've rediscovery of gospel truth but we've got to leave some of the baggage behind got to leave some of the baggage behind in my opinion in my opinion we've got to be sensitive to the we've got to be sensitive to the appearance of looking down on others appearance of looking down on others uh if we if we imitate that sort of uh if we if we imitate that sort of language the the language that we see in language the the language that we see in the early christadelphian writings i the early christadelphian writings i think we run into the danger of driving think we run into the danger of driving people away people away and also and importantly giving our and also and importantly giving our community a bad name community a bad name um um i you know i think there's probably a i you know i think there's probably a lot of us lot of us here on on the class tonight that here on on the class tonight that remember uh brother ernie pride remember uh brother ernie pride uh ernie was a brother from the cranston uh ernie was a brother from the cranston rhode island of colisia rhode island of colisia um i've got great memories of brother um i've got great memories of brother ernie he was you know he was old as long ernie he was you know he was old as long as i remember you know i was a little as i remember you know i was a little kid and he would he was the guy that kid and he would he was the guy that would go down at the wilbraham bible would go down at the wilbraham bible school and open up the pool school and open up the pool and i was always you know wanted to be and i was always you know wanted to be the first one but he was uh i think one the first one but he was uh i think one of the uh the founders of the uh the founders of what we now call ask of what we now call ask uh the advancement of scripture uh the advancement of scripture knowledge knowledge and ernie had a quote that i remember and ernie had a quote that i remember him telling me and it just sort of was him telling me and it just sort of was uh you know marked in my mind and it was uh you know marked in my mind and it was that we don't burn down somebody's house that we don't burn down somebody's house until we give them a better place until we give them a better place to live to live right right and i think that's that's my counsel you and i think that's that's my counsel you know as we get into this class about uh know as we get into this class about uh about the trinity about the trinity our goal our goal in all of discussions like this brothers in all of discussions like this brothers and sisters and sisters is to teach and correct with compassion is to teach and correct with compassion with a purpose with a purpose and the purpose is that others might be and the purpose is that others might be saved there's this quote from second saved there's this quote from second timothy where we are to yes we're to timothy where we are to yes we're to reprove we are to reboot rebuke we are reprove we are to reboot rebuke we are to encourage exhort to encourage exhort but we're to do so but we're to do so with great patience with great patience and and so i i think that's my uh that's and and so i i think that's my uh that's my my my counsel my counsel uh colossians says so as those who've uh colossians says so as those who've been chosen of god holy and beloved put been chosen of god holy and beloved put on a heart of compassion kindness on a heart of compassion kindness humility gentleness humility gentleness and patience and patience um um you know we get to this this quote again you know we get to this this quote again from jesus uh where he's you know from jesus uh where he's you know rebuking the scribes and the pharisees rebuking the scribes and the pharisees you study the scriptures diligently but you study the scriptures diligently but you think you think it in them you have eternal life these it in them you have eternal life these are the very scriptures that testify are the very scriptures that testify about me but you refuse to come to me to about me but you refuse to come to me to have life have life so i think that as we get into this so i think that as we get into this let's remember that our purpose in let's remember that our purpose in having discussions like this is not to having discussions like this is not to win the battle of of debate but it's to win the battle of of debate but it's to save it's to bear fruit it's to save it's to bear fruit it's to encourage encourage and um and um that's that's my goal um that's that's my goal um any questions or comments at this point any questions or comments at this point in time steve the bible verse that comes to mind is uh is uh first corinthians 9 20 to the jews i first corinthians 9 20 to the jews i became like a jew to win the jews to became like a jew to win the jews to those under the law i became like those under the law i became like one under the law although i myself was one under the law although i myself was not under the law so as to win those not under the law so as to win those under the law under the law so so just to to give that's a good one to just to to give that's a good one to give some way and and for the point that give some way and and for the point that you mentioned so to win them you mentioned so to win them yeah yeah so i got a couple of comments yeah yeah so i got a couple of comments yeah yeah yes yes yeah um yeah um dave dave is right that book came out a long time is right that book came out a long time ago because i remember reading it in the ago because i remember reading it in the uh about 15 20 years ago i believe uh about 15 20 years ago i believe the hardcover original was 1999 the hardcover original was 1999 and amazon is selling the paperback and amazon is selling the paperback that's why that's paperback edition it's that's why that's paperback edition it's not the first time i've been wrong not the first time i've been wrong no no i said you're not wrong you were no no i said you're not wrong you were right turning 10 was the paperback right turning 10 was the paperback um um you weren't wrong it just wasn't full you weren't wrong it just wasn't full full full disclosure full full disclosure okay um secondly uh okay um secondly uh your point about debate is really very your point about debate is really very good good i i think this is why uh bible seminars i i think this is why uh bible seminars have been much more successful than uh have been much more successful than uh public lectures uh i remember when i was public lectures uh i remember when i was a kid and when i moved to england to a kid and when i moved to england to work for a while he used to get these work for a while he used to get these public lectures uh the trinity is wrong public lectures uh the trinity is wrong or there is no devil or there is no devil totally useless uh totally useless uh i got to know brother dennis skillet i got to know brother dennis skillet quite well and working in england over quite well and working in england over the years and one of the things he said the years and one of the things he said to me that stuck in my mind he said to me that stuck in my mind he said debate is not a way to preach debate is not a way to preach he says because two things can happen he says because two things can happen if you win the debate you've embarrassed if you win the debate you've embarrassed your opponent your opponent and if you lose the debate you've and if you lose the debate you've embarrassed yourself embarrassed yourself and i thought that was just a great and i thought that was just a great insight and i i think brother roberts insight and i i think brother roberts was backing away from that late in life was backing away from that late in life that's why he wrote true principles and that's why he wrote true principles and on certain details yeah yeah yeah on certain details yeah yeah yeah he was trying to tone it down and i he was trying to tone it down and i think he realized that that that was think he realized that that that was what that has what that has contributed to division contributed to division yeah so yeah your point is just yeah so yeah your point is just really well taken thank you really well taken thank you you're welcome thank you yeah i was good you're welcome thank you yeah i was good to uh steve to uh steve uh can you hear me about steve i can uh can you hear me about steve i can yeah yeah yeah uh your uh yeah uh your uh comments on uh comments on uh being uh patient and so forth uh in fact being uh patient and so forth uh in fact uh it was one of the meetings i took to uh it was one of the meetings i took to uh lorna's father who taught me the uh lorna's father who taught me the truth truth that kindness and uh that kindness and uh the way he expressed himself and what the way he expressed himself and what not that not that uh and i agree with you 100 that uh uh and i agree with you 100 that uh uh uh if you come on too strong with people if you come on too strong with people surely gonna turn them off yeah surely gonna turn them off yeah so so richard i know you know one of the so so richard i know you know one of the things that i really admire about you things that i really admire about you right brother richard and i don't want right brother richard and i don't want to embarrass you but you know it's it's to embarrass you but you know it's it's your ability your ability to have to have conversations with people conversations with people you know to be in a walmart and to you know to be in a walmart and to strike up a conversation and i think strike up a conversation and i think that that's what i'm trying to do in in that that's what i'm trying to do in in sort of the next part of our class so sort of the next part of our class so with your permission i'm going to just with your permission i'm going to just sort of change sort of change and talk about this idea and talk about this idea about about our about you know sort of the shema our about you know sort of the shema which is this you know this this saying which is this you know this this saying in judaism in judaism hear o israel the lord our god is one hear o israel the lord our god is one and um and um what i want to interrupt just for one what i want to interrupt just for one second sure jay second sure jay i just want to thank john for what he i just want to thank john for what he just said it has cleared up something just said it has cleared up something that that the division in christadelphian the division in christadelphian who had that who had that has really bugged me for 49 years so i has really bugged me for 49 years so i just wanted to say that before you went just wanted to say that before you went too much further bye bye too much further bye bye okay okay all right well thanks john and thanks all right well thanks john and thanks jay jay so um as we consider this idea so um as we consider this idea and about having discussions with folks and about having discussions with folks that may be questioning the trinity that may be questioning the trinity i want to try and give you some sort of i want to try and give you some sort of big picture views about what you might big picture views about what you might have conversations about have conversations about not to so much prove the point but just not to so much prove the point but just to plant the seed in their mind to plant the seed in their mind that huh that huh i wonder if i should like i wonder if i should like think about this more think about this more okay okay so the first thing i do is is i would so the first thing i do is is i would suggest that we might start by suggest that we might start by rethinking rethinking the historical jesus the historical jesus and this is uh you know i think some of and this is uh you know i think some of you have seen this picture before you have seen this picture before this picture on the left was painted by this picture on the left was painted by uh warner salman i think it's probably i uh warner salman i think it's probably i think somebody said it's got like the think somebody said it's got like the world record of the most reprints of of world record of the most reprints of of a painting a painting uh you know there are so many people uh you know there are so many people that have reprinted this i remember that have reprinted this i remember growing up and going to my friends who growing up and going to my friends who were catholic and they all had this were catholic and they all had this painting in their kitchens painting in their kitchens right right and uh what do we see we see this white and uh what do we see we see this white anglo-saxon man anglo-saxon man that has been named jesus that has been named jesus and yet on the right we see what the and yet on the right we see what the biblical archaeological uh biblical biblical archaeological uh biblical archaeology review magazine uh sort of archaeology review magazine uh sort of reconstructed based on um forensic reconstructed based on um forensic science science what a jewish man in the year of you what a jewish man in the year of you know ad30 know ad30 might have looked like might have looked like and so we see this this great difference and so we see this this great difference in view in view and that is just a visual way to see the and that is just a visual way to see the difference between sort of difference between sort of the the jesus of tradition at least in the the jesus of tradition at least in you know white anglo-saxon uh you know white anglo-saxon uh countries countries and the jesus of history or we might say and the jesus of history or we might say the jesus of the bible so we see it sort the jesus of the bible so we see it sort of visually but we can go beyond that of visually but we can go beyond that and we can start reminding people and we can start reminding people of very basic things of very basic things but i remember having conversation with but i remember having conversation with a buddy of mine saying you know you know a buddy of mine saying you know you know jesus was jewish and it just like jesus was jewish and it just like what what no it just seemed so funny to him no it just seemed so funny to him you know he thought jesus was catholic you know he thought jesus was catholic just like him just like him and the the just a simple thing like and the the just a simple thing like that you know that jesus was a jewish that you know that jesus was a jewish man man for a lot of people who don't grow up in for a lot of people who don't grow up in a christian home or a bible reading home a christian home or a bible reading home they might find that they might find that worth considering worth considering anybody else have that experience anybody else have that experience growing up in uh in catholic new england growing up in uh in catholic new england or anyplace else jim smiling yeah i think he better yeah um i i grew up in a jewish yeah um i i grew up in a jewish neighborhood in brooklyn neighborhood in brooklyn okay okay in fact um in fact um so many of my friends were some like i so many of my friends were some like i think in college even one think in college even one boyfriend was a boyfriend was a valentine valentine [Music] [Music] lynn and lynn and barbara probably remember val barbara probably remember val he was a really he was a really strong trinitarian and strong trinitarian and getting him to getting him to [Music] [Music] never never never never had a bible class my dorm room and we had a bible class my dorm room and we never took the approach of debate we never took the approach of debate we took the approach of took the approach of where a bunch of students let's study where a bunch of students let's study this and see what you think this and see what you think and eventually after a few months and eventually after a few months i said well what do you think about the i said well what do you think about the nature of jesus and god he said oh oh nature of jesus and god he said oh oh it's pretty plain the bible is pretty it's pretty plain the bible is pretty plain i don't know why i ever believed plain i don't know why i ever believed in the trinity even though in all that in the trinity even though in all that time time i never even mentioned the word trinity i never even mentioned the word trinity yeah yeah you know john it's it's interesting you you know john it's it's interesting you talk about you know growing up in a talk about you know growing up in a jewish neighborhood yeah all we have to jewish neighborhood yeah all we have to do is go over right now to the uk do is go over right now to the uk and we see this explosive growth within and we see this explosive growth within the crysadelphian community the crysadelphian community from one particular from one particular demographic demographic and what's the demographic and what's the demographic iranian iranians iranian iranians who grew up who grew up not as jews not as jews but but they grew up in a very but but they grew up in a very monotheistic religion monotheistic religion right right and so and so if we if we think about preaching the if we if we think about preaching the gospel some of the the greatest converts gospel some of the the greatest converts are our brothers like david levin you are our brothers like david levin you know know or or like these brothers and sisters or or like these brothers and sisters that are coming over from iran who who that are coming over from iran who who don't have this baggage of you know a don't have this baggage of you know a trinitarian belief trinitarian belief and i think that well yeah yeah by and i think that well yeah yeah by sharing this idea that we believe in one sharing this idea that we believe in one god it makes us in my i would think it god it makes us in my i would think it would make us that much more palatable would make us that much more palatable to uh to to believing that jesus was to uh to to believing that jesus was more than more than uh i had a grad student uh named uh i had a grad student uh named mohammed imanian mohammed imanian and uh and uh much much talk and everything he much much talk and everything he eventually accepted jesus changed his eventually accepted jesus changed his name to mark imani interesting and name to mark imani interesting and it's it's he did not become a christian he did not become a christian that i didn't get that far but he did that i didn't get that far but he did marry a christian girl later on yeah but marry a christian girl later on yeah but his family totally disowned him yeah so his family totally disowned him yeah so if you think about it jesus grew up in a if you think about it jesus grew up in a jewish household and one of the key jewish household and one of the key teachings in all of judaism was based on teachings in all of judaism was based on the shema hero israel the lord our god the shema hero israel the lord our god is one is one and uh you know what's the first and uh you know what's the first commandment what's you know commandment what's you know joshua says you know you've got today joshua says you know you've got today you've got to choose who are you going you've got to choose who are you going to serve are you going to serve yahweh to serve are you going to serve yahweh or you're going to serve somebody else or you're going to serve somebody else you got to choose you got to choose right all throughout the jewish right all throughout the jewish scriptures we see this the importance scriptures we see this the importance of a belief of a belief in one god in one god in a you know and in a you know and it's it's a clear and certain teaching it's it's a clear and certain teaching of the jewish christian of the jewish uh of the jewish christian of the jewish uh scriptures and even when you get to the scriptures and even when you get to the new testament you see that belief coming new testament you see that belief coming through and i'll just point you to the through and i'll just point you to the sanctuary shuckle you know why was it sanctuary shuckle you know why was it that they had to have a special coin in that they had to have a special coin in order to go into yahweh's temple and it order to go into yahweh's temple and it was because the striking of an image on was because the striking of an image on a coin with a man's you know a man's a coin with a man's you know a man's image was viewed in the mind of the the image was viewed in the mind of the the jewish believers to be jewish believers to be a you know a problem a you know a problem with hear o israel the lord our god is with hear o israel the lord our god is one have no other gods before me one have no other gods before me so this is something that was you know so this is something that was you know deeply held a deeply held belief by deeply held a deeply held belief by jesus jesus as well as all of the jews as well as all of the jews in both the jewish scriptures and the in both the jewish scriptures and the new testament scriptures jesus and the apostles shared the same understanding understanding of god of god as other jews as other jews in the old testament or the new in the old testament or the new they all believed that the father they all believed that the father was god this idea of a trinity was god this idea of a trinity never entered their minds never entered their minds and to sort of have that discussion with and to sort of have that discussion with interested friends or just sort of to interested friends or just sort of to somehow find a way to have that somehow find a way to have that discussion may discussion may in a gentle way plant the seed um in a gentle way plant the seed um i've got a i've got a quote here from i've got a i've got a quote here from from mark chapter 12 from mark chapter 12 and this is where um you know the the and this is where um you know the the scribe that young rule that that young scribe that young rule that that young student came to him student came to him and said you know what's the greatest and said you know what's the greatest commandment commandment and i'll just i'm going to turn it up and i'll just i'm going to turn it up it's uh mark chapter 12. it's uh mark chapter 12. and what's fascinating to me is jesus and what's fascinating to me is jesus response you know what's the greatest response you know what's the greatest commandment commandment um verse 28 one of the teachers of the law came and one of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating and noticing that heard them debating and noticing that jesus had given them a good answer he jesus had given them a good answer he asked him of all the commandments which asked him of all the commandments which is the most important is the most important the most important one is uh he answered the most important one is uh he answered jesus is hero israel jesus is hero israel the lord our god the lord is one the lord our god the lord is one love the lord your god with all your love the lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul and with heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength all your mind and with all your strength and the second is this and the second is this love your neighbor as yourself love your neighbor as yourself there is no commandment greater than there is no commandment greater than these now here's the thing that i think these now here's the thing that i think is fascinating is fascinating well said teacher well said teacher the man replied you are right in saying the man replied you are right in saying that god is one that god is one and there is no other and there is no other but him but him now if now if if jesus if jesus heard someone reply heard someone reply like this like this and jesus and jesus thought that he was you know the the thought that he was you know the the second person of the trinity second person of the trinity don't you think it would be reasonable don't you think it would be reasonable for jesus to sort of like for jesus to sort of like further explain things to this young further explain things to this young teacher teacher to say well let me let me explain you to say well let me let me explain you know you say that uh you know the lord know you say that uh you know the lord our god is one and but but let me tell our god is one and but but let me tell you what that really means you what that really means jesus doesn't do that jesus doesn't do that he doesn't he doesn't you know try to he doesn't he doesn't you know try to better teach this man on his better teach this man on his understanding of god and does just the understanding of god and does just the opposite he doesn't correct him he opposite he doesn't correct him he actually compliments him actually compliments him and he says you're not far from entering and he says you're not far from entering the kingdom of god and i think that's the kingdom of god and i think that's really a very compelling thing for me to really a very compelling thing for me to to say yeah you know jesus never thought to say yeah you know jesus never thought he was part of a trinity otherwise he he was part of a trinity otherwise he would have corrected this man he didn't would have corrected this man he didn't do that do that um um who do the cry you know who do the crowd who do the cry you know who do the crowd say that i am who do you say that i am say that i am who do you say that i am right we know the stories right we know the stories you are the messiah you know jesus you are the messiah you know jesus doesn't like pause and give more details doesn't like pause and give more details and say well that's true but i'm really and say well that's true but i'm really this you know there's none of that this you know there's none of that i think these sorts of conversations i think these sorts of conversations might be helpful might be helpful and if and if the the idea of the the idea of monotheism monotheism was such an important thing was such an important thing hero israel the lord our god is one hero israel the lord our god is one what's the most important commandment what's the most important commandment that god has won right that god has won right don't you think it would be reasonable don't you think it would be reasonable that there would be a huge amount of that there would be a huge amount of controversy in acts and in the letters controversy in acts and in the letters that would try to define and refine the that would try to define and refine the teaching of the teaching of the trinity because trinity because these letters are so full of other these letters are so full of other controversies there's controversies controversies there's controversies about you know are we saved by works of about you know are we saved by works of law law or are we saved by grace or are we saved by grace i mean that was a controversy in the day i mean that was a controversy in the day and and paul had to write about it and and paul had to write about it because people were up in arms over it because people were up in arms over it what do you mean i i'm going to give what do you mean i i'm going to give away the law of the law of moses i'm not away the law of the law of moses i'm not going to perform that i've been eating going to perform that i've been eating kosher ever since i was you know one kosher ever since i was you know one year old year old and to just like walk away from that of and to just like walk away from that of course there'd be controversy course there'd be controversy and there was and paul addressed it in and there was and paul addressed it in his writings his writings for a jew the idea that you know the for a jew the idea that you know the messiah would die messiah would die i mean it was a huge controversy so much i mean it was a huge controversy so much so that it became the centerpiece of so that it became the centerpiece of faith and it be there were whole faith and it be there were whole chapters dedicated to if christ is not chapters dedicated to if christ is not risen your faith is in vain first risen your faith is in vain first corinthians 15. corinthians 15. don't you think it would make sense that if the the the trinity was being taught the trinity was being taught that there would be huge controversy that there would be huge controversy among the early jewish among the early jewish brothers and sisters brothers and sisters of course there would of course there would but there was nothing in the new but there was nothing in the new testament scriptures that pointed to any testament scriptures that pointed to any sort of thing like that sort of thing like that and i think that's really and i think that's really an important point to get across when an important point to get across when we're talking to folks we're talking to folks peter had to get peter had to get uh uh uh corrected on that too when the uh uh uh corrected on that too when the sheep came down out of heaven and uh sheep came down out of heaven and uh right right yeah yeah yeah that's right richard that's right so we don't get any sense whether it's so we don't get any sense whether it's in the gospels in the acts or in the in the gospels in the acts or in the letters of any hint of controversy over letters of any hint of controversy over this you know quote-unquote new this you know quote-unquote new understanding of the jewish god it's not understanding of the jewish god it's not there there and so i think that points that's a good and so i think that points that's a good discussion and it's a discussion you can discussion and it's a discussion you can have with somebody without having to have with somebody without having to open up the bible and without having to open up the bible and without having to you know go verse by verse it's a you know go verse by verse it's a conversation you can have on a bike ride conversation you can have on a bike ride it's a conversation you could have in a it's a conversation you could have in a golf cart it's kind of golf cart it's kind of you can have over a cup of coffee you can have over a cup of coffee um um low-key low-key these are things that just made me go these are things that just made me go pause pause and you know have you ever wondered why and you know have you ever wondered why there's no controversy so that's i think there's no controversy so that's i think that's that's that that's important and that gives us that that's important and that gives us a couple of options why a couple of options why why was there no controversy well maybe why was there no controversy well maybe the trinity didn't exist yet the trinity didn't exist yet well maybe the trinity did exist but well maybe the trinity did exist but jesus never told anybody about it jesus never told anybody about it or or the trinity wasn't taught because the trinity wasn't taught because you know the trinity was caught but but you know the trinity was caught but but it didn't cause it didn't cause any it didn't cause it didn't cause any controversy well obviously that that controversy well obviously that that doesn't make sense when we see so much doesn't make sense when we see so much other controversy other controversy so so um eventually though there was right um eventually though there was right there was no controversy in the in the there was no controversy in the in the new testament because it wasn't taught new testament because it wasn't taught but eventually there was and this is but eventually there was and this is where uh rubenstein starts talking about where uh rubenstein starts talking about this influx of um this influx of um of greek thought of greek thought and this this led to a controversy and this this led to a controversy between athanasius who taught that jesus between athanasius who taught that jesus was eternal and aaron who taught that was eternal and aaron who taught that jesus had a beginning jesus had a beginning right jesus was the only begotten son of right jesus was the only begotten son of god god and this then led to the council of and this then led to the council of nicaea and the council of constantinople nicaea and the council of constantinople and all of that sort of history of the and all of that sort of history of the trinity the point is trinity the point is in all of these scholarly writings the in all of these scholarly writings the trinity was a later development and that trinity was a later development and that explains the lack of controversy in the explains the lack of controversy in the scriptures scriptures it's never explained as explained in the it's never explained as explained in the scriptures scriptures so i'm going to stop there we've uh so i'm going to stop there we've uh we've run out of time we've run out of time and i think that's probably as good of and i think that's probably as good of any a place to stop