Made in God’s Image

Transcript

um so you have my my title slide up x there it's spoiling it a little bit but x I want to give some background for the x topic I selected for the month of x January um basically it began with my x sister-in-law Becca uh who you may know x and her husband Seth Thomas um they've x been holding a monthly New England cyc x gathering for uh basically all the youth x from the area eclesia a lot of them x don't have large cyc's in their home x mclees so the thought was hey we she get x together more than once a year at bible x school and and have some sort of uh x regular meeting um so they meet once a x month in the Cranston Hall and I think I x think Megan and will and and some of of x the stoen young people joined as well um x they asked me to do the one for the x month of January and Seth was asking for x a topic and I suggested well what do you x think about um a topic of how to think x about Sin and selfworth if you get this x this is something maybe that would x resonate with the young people you know x they're kind of in this early stage x where they're forming their values and x their x identity and they're growing up and x they're probably starting to encounter x some of the thorny issues of life and uh x that can be very confusing bewildering x time um you know so I don't think I pick x the easiest topic to talk about um and I x figured I I'd probably need some some x serious help to to get through it and I x stumbled across this book um that's been x in my library for I think four years I x don't know if you can see it there it's x called by Design and in God's image x self-esteem from a judeo-christian x worldview it was actually recommended to x me by Sister Marth 11 um you may know x David and cor's daughter and and I never x picked it up and read it it's one of x those books you know got Amazon delivery x and put it on the shelf and that was the x last I saw of it but it's it it's come x in handy in preparing this this devotion x for the x cyers um so I just want to share x something from uh the second paragraph x of the book's x introduction x um the central message of This Book Is x that our self-esteem ultimately rests in x the belief that each one of us is made x in the image and likeness of God the x judeo-christian faith has always held x the view that the origin of humankind is x directly linked to a creative Act of a x personal God and that God purposefully x and specifically by Design created human x beings In His x Image what I'll be emphasizing is that x the ultimate basis of a secure and x healthy sense of self-worth is directly x related to the level of accepting x understanding and experiencing the truth x of our being image bearers of x God this one truth explains why God has x placed such a great value and worth on x human life why God loves each one of us x personally it explains why Jesus Christ x loves you and me and willingly gave his x life to become Our x Savior um so this has been a really x interesting uh book to read uh in a lot x of ways it's it's been comforting to be x reminded that God sees something x inherently worthwhile about Mankind x something worth saving x God can see in us not just uh uh human x potential we hear a lot about but x spiritual potential that we're designed x to bear his image and x likeness and so our our Christadelphian x teaching um it often focuses on man's x Fallen State the problems of our sinful x Hearts um and that can lead to feelings x of Shame and guilt over our humanity and x possibly uh Despair and hopelessness uh x we may question well well are we even x still in God's image um or did that x condition only ever apply to Adam and x Eve before the fall x um you x know I I think our views about uh human x sinfulness our nature and x inclinations um it does have a bearing x on on these questions about self-worth x and x self-esteem you know and even talking x about this topic a little bit um you x know it I I think we're a little x sensitized to this right you know we x don't want to talk too much about x ourselves or how we feel about ourselves x because um we we understand that uh it's x all about making God great and making x ourselves small in some x ways um so so I I think to have a x healthy and biblical sense of well how x am I supposed to see myself this is the x me is how I experience the world and how x I experience God and my brothers and x sisters um this is our frame of x reference so we we should have an x accurate picture of x ourselves uh not one that's prideful or x puffed up because that would be x dishonest um and not one that's that's x graveling and completely sees no value x because that's not how God sees us um so x you know as I was going through this I'm x very conscious of of sort of what the x worldview is of these sorts of topics x you know a view that has not been x influenced by scripture and Bible x teaching x and then um the possibility of going to x sort of an extreme in our own thinking x um with respect to implying a lack of x self-worth on the basis that we have x this sinful nature and inclination x hopefully that makes sense a little bit x you know I I I do think we we could x compartmentalize um what we know about x these topics you know we we have in the x Ecclesia right where we know that the x heart is deceitful and desperately x wicked um but the culture is telling us x to love ourselves unconditionally to x affirm all of our thoughts and desires x to live our best lives you hear all this x kind of stuff um in the x world and here's the Ecclesia telling x the membership how we have to crucify x our our passions we have to crucify the x flesh with its its x desires um you know Paul says I know x that nothing good dwells in me um and if x we don't address these sorts of x questions and this is why we're talking x about it with the teenagers if we if we x can't handle these questions um we may x just end up thinking well that must mean x I'm worthless that must mean I have no x value because of my sinful flesh and x desperately wicked heart x um so so there there is a logical x disconnect there's a a leap that's being x made if we see implicit in our our state x um a reason not to find Value in x ourselves x um so you know I I hoping that with the x teenagers we can address some of the x cultural issues some of the the x messaging and x programming uh that they're hearing from x Social Media their colleagues their x classmates um all the people that we x interact with and um you know engaging x with kind of the biblical perspective to x kind of sort through the Clutter what's x good what's bad what can get tossed out x what do we need to redeem so that's x that's sort of the basis for some of the x thoughts um in today class I just wanted x to go through some kind of definitional x things start in Genesis and look at what x is actually said about man's creation um x but hopefully uh over the course of of x the month kind of bring this around to x you know kind of more application x oriented stuff so so how does that sound x any any thoughts or comments at this x point all x right sounds good to me Ben x thanks x Steve so the scriptural jumping off x point is Genesis 1 I'll read the passage x God said let us make man in our image x after our likeness let them have x dominion over the fish of the sea over x the birds of the heavens and over the x livestock and over all the Earth over x every creeping thing that creeps on the x earth so God created man in his own x image in the image of God he created him x male and female fale he created x them so the first thing to know here is x the pr pronouncement that God makes here x it's unlike anything that's preceded it x right um in verse 11 um in Genesis 1:1 x he says let the Earth bring forth and x plant life appears in verse 20 he says x let the waters bring forth and ocean x life and marine life appears x but here in verse 26 he says let us make x so it's a different kind of command it's x a different kind of creative act I think x it implies an extra level of attention x and consideration to what would be a x special creature designed to Bear God's x image and x likeness so there's there's something x about um this image in likeness that's x unique to mankind is not shared or found x in the rest of x creation uh so so so that's a clue we're x just going through and Gathering some x Clues uh because otherwise these terms x are are kind of hard to understand um x we'll do a brief word study in a moment x but generally speaking image and x likeness they kind of mean exactly what x they sound like uh image referring to x physical x appearance and likeness being similarity x right it's a comparative x term and that's that's how these words x in in Hebrew are are most often used x um you know but but what is it that's x unique about humankind um we just said x that this isn't something that's applied x to any of the other creative created x beings um so you could say you know well x man doesn't resemble any of the other x creatures that we found in the animal x kingdom um one one author I was reading x said well you know the the unique thing x about Mankind is that they walk upright x on two legs I said oh you know that that x kind of makes sense that is that is x interesting and then you think about it x well literally all birds walk on two x legs so you know bird life does uh I x think the primates have some limited x bipedalism they call it bipedalism when x you walk on two legs um but you think x about okay human Locomotion that's x that's pretty interesting that's pretty x unique there isn't really an animal that x walks like a human being does and it's x really interesting to think I'm just x providing this kind of very narrow x application in which okay maybe this is x a sense in which we're made in God's x image um you know this whole expression x of walking uprightly you know it's it's x used to signify uh moral things like x right God's righteousness is to to walk x upright thing and we we even have like x the um the healing of the crippled woman x in Luke 13 who couldn't raise herself up x and and Jesus healed her so there's like x the spiritual Dimension to a a physical x thing x um so so you you might look at this and x say at the way that humans are designed x to move and say oh here's a unique way x in which God has designed human kind x there's even a spiritual lesson taught x from the physical reality the the x literal upright walking is mirrored in x spiritual uprightness that's that's kind x of interesting to think x about so um I I did encounter I was x looking through this sort of uh people x taking image and likeness and kind of x applying a very narrow applic oh it x means this specific thing but the terms x themselves are used in Genesis one are x are pretty broad they're pretty General x um so it didn't seem appropriate to just x pick one thing and say oh this is what x it x means um so you know this is just sort x of some preliminaries I was approaching x this with because Genesis one on its own x doesn't doesn't tell you a whole lot x about what is meant by image and x likeness um so we have to look at the x rest of scripture um and so I I figured x we' take a two-prong approach here first x we're going to see how the terms image x and likeness are used elsewhere in x scripture um to get a better idea of the x terms meaning and and range of meaning I x think is important as well and then x we'll look specifically at where this x specific concept of God man being made x in God's image where that concept is x being invoked elsewhere in x scripture um so we'll look at the words x first then we'll look at the the x concept okay so plan catch up x here we're going to go backwards and x start start with x likeness um so just as an example 2 x Kings 16 king ahaz of Judah at war with x the kingdom of Israel and Syria he x reaches out to the king of Assyria right x so there's four parties in the mix and x says hey can we make an alliance right x so Assyria is like yeah we don't like x Syria or Israel either Assyria comes x down attacks Damascus kills the king of x Syria um and and king ahaz of Judah goes x up to Damascus to meet with the king of x Assyria uh to survey their conquest and x and he sees this fancy altar that x catches his eye um so he he meets tigth x piser in Damascus he sees the Altar and x he sent to UAH the priest the likeness x of the Altar and its pattern according x to all its work uh so clearly this is x being used to describe a physical object x it's it's a blueprint or scale model or x a sketch on the back of a napkin that a x has sends to Gig and says hey I want one x like this right so you can see the x comparison the similarity um so this is x an example of a very literal sense of of x physical appearance that that likeness x is being using okay uh so there's a x couple exceptions where likeness is x being used to describe something other x than simply physical x appearance um so the first one is Psalm x 58 the wicked are estranged from the x womb they go astray as soon as they be x born speaking lies their poison is like x the poison of a serpent they are like x the deaf Adder that stops her ear so the x same term um the MTH I think I don't x know should not pronounce these um but x the same term that's found in Genesis 1 x vers 26 the question being for us is x well how are the lies of the wicked like x the poison of a serpent in what sense x are they similar are they liquid x excretions with neurotoxic x properties no do they jet out of the x wicked spangs no they're not like the LI x the poison of a serpent in those sense x but the lies of the wicked are similar x to poison of a serpent in that they're x deadly they're harmful those are the x sorts of things that are being inferred x so these are not it's not literally like x the poison uh but in some other sense um x so the idea here is to explore the range x and meaning of the terms I'm not a x linguist we got some people that are but x you can look at how the same Hebrew term x is used in other context how it's being x interpret uh translated I should say um x and applied and say okay this is x actually kind of a wide meaning term x I'll give you another example in Psalm x 102 x ver6 the psalmist says I am like a x pelican of the Wilderness I am like an x owl of the x desert so again how was David like a x pelican in the wilderness was he x feathered did he have a beak no x obviously not this is clearly talking x about a bird in a solitary place um it's x an expression of David's x loneliness and so you see the term like x can reference something other than just x visual similarity there's a lot of x different levels on which this term can x be x used any question on on x likeness just interrupt me if there's x any thoughts comments or questions happy x to to do x that so Ben likeness is the physical x side of things x right it very often is um but I think x these second two passages are are saying x that there's something Beyond kind of a x literal physical meaning that that the x term can be used like it's a general x descriptor right it's it's a comparison x term so you know the lies of the wicked x they're not literally like poison x they're not they're not going to cause x your body to have a toxical logical x response right but they are deadly and x harmful so there's a different sense in x which they're like the lies of the x wicked or like the poison of that ask so x are you suggesting that uh as it relates x to God likeness would be like his x character or are you going to get into x that later in the class yeah I think I x think right now it's just kind of laying x the groundwork for what the terms mean x because you know we we need some more x guidance on well how far can we go with x this I I mean very clearly I agree Steve x I I think it's talking about something x that's that's more than just um you know x what God looks like well what does God x look like anyway I mean that's that's a x question we're gonna have to take on at x some point as well um but you know kind x of the Primitive or even I guess the x face value understanding of this term is x that there's some appearance of God that x man is x bearing right and the reality of it is x probably a little more nuanced so I x think looking at these terms to x understand their range of meaning will x will the term likeness even tolerate an x interpretation Beyond something that's x very x superficial so I think of Jesus when um x you know he says if you've seen me x you've seen the x father um x yeah so you know to me he's exhibiting x the the likeness of God in that x way yeah that's that's a great great x example Steve because it shows just how x dangerous taking something at face value x or just the plain meaning of the terms x could be right because we right oh x you're looking at God no you're not x actually looking at God you're seeing x some aspect of God's character in Christ x right you know we x can we can see that in our in our own x like lineages so Jim Sullivan showed us x those those pictures from our ecclesial x history and one of those pictures was a x photo of my dad and me and I had a x couple of people come up and say you x know I never really realized how much x you look like your dad but that picture x you know your likeness was so similar so x in that case you know there's the x physical side of things x but there are also mannerisms that we x tend to have you know I look at my boys x and they've got a lot of the same x mannerisms that I have and I probably x have the same ones that my dad has you x know Chris Hampton exhorted and you can x see markup there right um and I think x all of us are uh you know designed to x sort of reflect the image and likeness x of God and in the same way that we x reflect the image and likeness of our x parents right x yeah no and it's really it's nice to x hear that too when somebody else can x tell that you are like your father x you're like okay that's that's there's x comfort in that um I love being told x that I usually more get often get it x from my mom's side because I think just x genetically that's the side of the x family that I favor um you know so it's x usually a comparison to to my Uncle x Chris or my grandfather Rick who's x asleep in Christ now um but but it it it x tells you that there's a it reaffirms x that connection that you have to your x your forebearers right um and I I think x it's the same thing if somebody looked x at me and said I was being Christlike I x was exemplifying the father the way that x that Jesus does I mean I'm happy to hear x that I'm happy to see that somebody's x noticed that that family resemblance if x you will x right right in the margin of my Bible in x Genesis 1 27 I have for where where it x says image of God I have the word x represent uh and amongst everything else x you said which I totally agree with I x think you know when God told Adam and x Eve to subdue the Earth you know they x would to do it representing God to do it x you know in the in under God's the way x God wanted it done and I think that you x know resemblance um you know image all x you know we were to mankind was to x represent God on the Earth Earth because x he was giving the Earth to man you know x here you go you know follow my laws and x Commandments and represent me and subdo x all things and so that's one of the x words I had written down I don't know if x you would come up with that one but yeah x I think represents is good x because represent can mean a lot of x things too that that word has a range of x meaning you can be a representative x right so you're uh like a delegate right x represent somebody else x um you could say a representation is x like like an image in its literal sense x a kind of a reproduction or fact simile x of another x object x um yeah that's that's that's a good one x Mark thanks for sharing x that um yeah so I think you know between x image and likeness the term likeness x probably is more flexible um that it has x a wider range of meaning um because it's x kind of a comparison term and you can x compare on a lot of different levels x whereas the term image uh the Hebrew x Salam is x um it it does primarily mean um a x physical representation to use your term x Mark x uh but but more in a physical sense um x so I'll just go through a few of x um the ways that the image is used if x that's okay and I apologize if this is a x little bit um plotting initially you x know the the word studies and things I I x think it's interesting it kind of helps x give a sense of of meaning um but what x we want to get to ultimately is the x stuff that Steve was bringing up which x is really well how how are we if we are x designed to be image bearers of most x high god um what what are the x implications for our walk and x spirituality um so so I'm sorry just x please bear with me we'll go through a x few of these and then we'll get to some x of the meat um so in in Ezekiel 23 we x see this term image coming up again and x and Ezekiel 23 has this parable of the x Kingdom of Israel in the Kingdom of x judah's infidelity to God and in this x particular verse judah's lust after the x Babylonians is described as um x increasing her prostitution she saw men x carved on the wall images of the calans x carved in bright x red um and this passage seems to be x describing some of the the stone reliefs x we see carve from that period um here's x one that you might be familiar with uh x it's called The Bernie relief um and x it's thought to be um the Pagan goddess x Ishtar which is referenced in the Bible x all right so this is a terracotta plaque x it's it's over 3500 years old it's very x ancient um but there's still traces of x red pigment on um on on the image uh the x the the figure in the image I should x say um so they they used this red ochre x pigment back then which is essentially x iron oxide or or rust so you know how x rust has a reddish tinge they would x collect all that rust and use it to x enhance their carvings so here's um kind x of a concept of of what this might have x looked like originally and you can see x it's quite St x um um so so this might have been the x sort of thing that was being thought of x um inel 23 these images of the calans in x in bright red uh I thought that was kind x of interesting x um so there there's a very literal sense x in which image just means kind of what x we think of as as like a carved or Raven x image that we hear about so often in the x Bible now interestingly enough the the x the term translated Graven image in x Bible is is not actually this word it's x a different Hebrew word um but but still x this term can be used in the context of x idolatry um for example during jeho the x priest reforms um it says that all the x people went the house of Baal and tore x down baal's altars and his images they x broke in pieces and it's the same idea x so again kind of the primary usage of x the term is is a physical x representation so before we go in saying x oh the image of God is his character the x image of God is is some moral attribute x of of who he is I don't think we can go x and say all of that based on Genesis 1 x and the terminology that's being used x itself but if we can establish that x there's a range of meaning for these x words then we can open ourselves to the x possibility that based on our readings x of other scriptures we can get to some x of that I would say deeper understanding x of what God wants to know us to know x about himself and our role in x manifesting x him um so a couple comments a couple x exceptions I should say similar to what x we did with likeness we can see that x um Psalm x 73 uses this term x image x um in a sense that's nonliteral right it x wouldn't make sense to for God to x despise the visual appearance of the x wicked I think that's the point that we x want to make with Psalm 73 is that God x doesn't make moral judgments about x superficial things right remember God's x admonishment to Samuel he says man looks x on the outward appearance but God looks x on the heart so when we see God x despising the image of Wicked Man in x Psalm 73 it's got to be talking about x something deeper than just what that x Wicked Man looks like cuz a wicked in a x righteous man might look awfully similar x and until you start seeing Oh their x behaviors their character some of these x these things that God only can can see x in our in our hearts um that's where I I x start I think we see a range of meaning x to image as well or at least the x potential for it let me give one more x example on image in Psalm x 39 um this passage is talking about the x transience of man his smallness in the x sight of God x his short lifetime behold you have made x my days a few hand breaths my lifetime x is as nothing before you surely all x mankind stands as a mere x breath surely man goes about as a x shadow so the word translated Shadow is x the same as image in Genesis x 1 I think Shadow is kind of interesting x because although Shadow is not a x physical image a shadow still represents x a greater object it it has the x resemblance the outline the pattern of x something that's casting the x shadow right so that's kind of x interesting God casting the Shadow and x and M man is just the kind of the x outline of what God's x casting x um so that that that kind of shows again x that there can be a little more depth to x the x term x all right x um I wanted to share a few x quotes uh from our x community x um but I think hopefully what I've x established just here we got about 10 x more minutes so we can get into the next x thing just a little bit but the idea is x to have established hey image and x likeness yes you know they don't really x mean you don't have to do a whole strong x dictionary search to find out they mean x image and likeness they mean resemblance x they mean physical appearance in the x primary sense but we've looked at enough x exceptions to show hey these words can x mean more than just that um but they are x similar terms they are kind of x describing a similar thing so the next x question I came up with is essentially x are they x interchangeable um so I I looked at x Harry Whitaker's book on Genesis and he x didn't seem to see too much difference x in the meaning of these words um to x quote Harry he says it's it's difficult x to be sure just what the difference in x meaning is to be understood between the x words image and likeness they seem to be x used x interchangeably in fact um although God x said let us make man in our image after x our likess he doesn't use a conjunction x right he doesn't x say let's make man in our image and x let's make man in our likeness it's in x our image comma after our likeness right x it's as if he's just restating what he x just said um it's worth noting that that x repetition for emphasis is is very x common um in Hebrew literature um you x know it can be repetition can be for x emphasis for variety for rhythm um I x just have Psalm 59 here as an example of x David finding four different ways to say x God please help x me x um so when God says L make man after our x image that could just mean the same x thing as after our likeness um image and x likeness don't have to be referring to x do different things x um and and it's actually kind of x interesting because if you look at the x very next verse it says God created Man x In His Image in the image of God he x created him male and female so when God x actually goes to create so verse 26 is x planning let us do this verse 27 is exec x ution it happens so when it happens it x just talks about being man being made in x God's x image now interestingly if you go to x Genesis chapter 5 that's where Adam and x Eve have Seth right Seth is sort of x there to replace Abel and says that uh x Seth was in Adam's x likeness and it connects it with man x being created in God's likeness but it x doesn't talk about the image x it just talks about man being created x after the likeness of God so in 127 it x says God was man was made in God's image x later it says man was made with in God's x likeness do they mean the same thing is x image equivalent to likeness that's the x question that that I was kind of x grappling with x here x um and I'm sorry I I realize I I could x get a little pedantic about these things x but I I kind of I want to understand x what these these words mean before kind x of coming up with my own thoughts about x things so this is sort of framing out x the problem a little bit I figured hey I x got a got a couple weeks to get into x this so let let's start with the x basics x um so hopefully uh this this is all x making sense x um the Wikipedia article I know x Wikipedia right on image of God it's x actually pretty good um there's a lot of x useful information there and ref uh x citations that led me to other places x and uh other references on on the topic x it had a section entitled image vers x likeness and that section uh is x suggesting that the current scholarship x is kind of leaning towards seeing terms x as being x interchangeable um whereas the medieval x distinction between image and likeness x of God has largely been abandoned by x modern interpreters according to C John x Collins uh since about the time of the x Reformation Scholars have recognized the x image and likeness x distinction doesn't doesn't suit the x text itself so that kind of goes back to x what I was saying about there not being x a conjunction about it just saying man x was made in God's image and then later x man was made in likeness uh doesn't seem x to be pointing to different aspects of x God that have been established in them x but I will say that our communities the x Christadelphian communities exposers x don't seem to be in total agreement with x that um although the quote I had just x shared from Brother Whitaker seem to x initially suggest he thought the views x were interchangeable he goes on to State x uh that there may be a distinction x between image and x likeness x um he says although this distinction is x not too clear in the Hebrew text the x intention in the New Testament Illusions x is not to be mistaken right so in our x image would appear to refer to the x physical resemblance after our likeness x to imply spiritual growth into a x spiritual imitation of the Divine x character um so brother Whitaker is x suggesting there's some individual x significance of each of these x terms um but but he does acknowledge x that we would have to go to the New x Testament or look at how they're used x elsewhere um which is something I tried x to do and and couldn't really find for x myself um I do think that Harry Whitaker x was influenced by John Thomas who wrote x that in form and capacity man was made x like to the angels but in nature x inferior to them um now now John x Thomas's his priority here was to show x that man did that the statement about x Adam being made in God's image and x likeness was not suggesting that man had x the Divine or sorry that Adam had the x divine nature at this time he's saying x hey image and likeness are talking about x these other things form and capacity but x not x nature uh he goes on to say the x resemblance therefore of Adam to the x Elohim as their image was of bodily form x not of intellectual and moral attainment x while image has reference to form or x shape likeness has regard to mental x Constitution or x capacity um and then to support the x definition of image he talks about the x angels that appear to Abraham um and x they appear as men right so the thought x is okay because the angels look like men x on a a physical level that's what that x term image is intended to x mean um and they said you know he's x making the distinction between the image x as the physical and the likeness as x being that capacity for spiritual growth x and development intellectual attainment x all the other things that make human x beings uh unique from the Animal x Kingdom um so I wanted to provide those x quotes there just because they gave us a x flavor of hey what what do our um x expositors in the chiselin community x have to say what is uh the view of kind x of scholarship at large um in all of x this I I kind of feel like brother Brian x uh during during his Wednesday night x class he said something about you this x is walking on Holy Ground um and I think x this is a significant topic I I want to x get it right I don't want to be too x dogmatic because I'm learning myself um x there's no x space for me to be super assertive about x this um at this point so I'm trying to x present the information I'm hoping that x we can kind of get sort of a x well-rounded comprehensive idea of what x information is available to us about x these concepts of image and likeness um x and hopefully we're going to see that x yes there is a deeper meaning it means x more than just what does man look like x know that man looks kind of like an x angel um you know we we can get into x sort of what the resurrected Christ was x like what his spiritual body was like x and and we know that there was some form x or resemblance on a physical level right x he still Beed the marks of his x crucifixion the spear in his side he x says Thomas put your hand here um you x know that's that's fascinating to me and x yet he's able to enter locked rooms and x he's able to you know do things that x normal human bodies can't do he's able x to ascend to the father he sits in his x presence um so this this study has x really opened my eyes to all kinds of x different really core doctrines um you x know I think this question about you x know did man lose the image and likeness x or we can say image or likeness if we x don't agree that they're x interchangeable did was one or both of x those lost when he fell when he sinned x when he was cast out of the garden um x that has a lot of bearing on kind of our x views of um you know human nature and um x kind of the implications of the fall and x our Redemption and obviously we're going x to get to the New Testament where it x says that that Jesus was the expressed x image of God in Hebrews 1:3 so there's x really a wealth of of of things we can x look into steming off of this topic

Transcript

all right so if you'll remember from a x couple weeks back we had opened up in x Genesis chapter 1 and we're looking at x verse 25 and x 26 x um uh 26 and 27 that is let us make man x in our image after our x likeness um let them have dominion over x the fish of the sea over the fowl of the x air over the cattle of the earth over x every creeping thing so God created man x in his own image in the image of God he x created created him male and female x created he them so my question was what x what does this mean to be made in God's x image um so a couple weeks back we x looked at the the Hebrew terms for image x and likeness and um just by way of x summary um there were two key questions x that I had really do image and likeness x strictly mean just physical appearance x what what God looks like right he's x speaking with the angels let us make man x in our image and likeness so God and the x angels they have some sort of appearance x perhaps and is that what's being spoken x of here or is there um a range of x meaning to these terms and then the x second question being do they x essentially mean the same thing are they x referring to the same thing are they x being are they terms that are used x interchangeably the terms being image x and x likeness x um so yeah so so I I think we had x reviewed a quote from John Tom is saying x that image refers to the form of man x what he looks like and likeness appears x to his moral character how how he's like x God um and so that that was brother x Thomas's uh suggestion I think brother x Thomas in the context in alpus Israel x he's very concerned to make the point x that IM neither image nor likeness mean x nature right so when we talk about the x divine nature that's something else x altogether that's something that man uh x does not have um so that seems to be his x primary point but he says yeah you know x the form of man he does appear like God x in some sense when God comes to to x Abraham on the plains of mamry there's x three Angels there and they they appear x just like men um that's that's John x Thomas's Point um I want to look at how x the prophets experiened God and also x what scripture says about what God has x what God looks like um so there's um x this may not something that we spend a x whole lot of time thinking about but x there's a lot of language in Scripture x that speaks of God in human terms um x I'll give you a few examples and you can x probably think of of many more this is x just a very kind of beginner's x list x um the eyes of the Lord are on the x righteous and the ears his ears are x attentive to their cry so God has eyes x he has Vision to see things he has ears x ears to hear things x um the question in my mind is and that x you know read survey the whole list of x references x there um clearly it's talking about God x as if he has these body parts with x functions that we know and recognize x because we have ears and eyes and mouths x and feet um and they all serve a purpose x and then interestingly enough they these x because these this purpose is so x essentially tied to how we experience x life the body parts that we have almost x take on a metaphorical meaning right so x you know the expression lend me your ear x right if we were to think about that x expression in very literal terms it x would be absurd you know here here's my x ear you know give it back when you're x done um you know the mouth of the Lord x has spoken Isaiah x 1:20 um my heart says to you seek his x face your face Lord I will seek in Psalm x 27 uh here here's one the sea is his for x he made it his hands formed the dry land x so our hands are are used for our x actions in many senses right even x something that is not directly done with x the hands um you know somebody might say x give me a hand you know here's my hand x you know no it means help me with x something um so hands represent God's x actions his creative works I I I think x what's important to remember when we're x doing this reading the Bible and we see x these kinds of references to God we have x to remember well God God is not a man x right um but because we are men and x women he speaks to us in ways that we x understand he speaks in ways that are x relatable x um who has believed our message and to x whom has the arm of the Lord been x revealed I think of the expression the x long arm of the law right you've heard x that before right and the idea is um you x know that that the law you know law x enforcement agencies have a very long x reach to apprehend criminals right you x can flee to whatever distant part and x somehow the FBI is going to find you x apprehend you extradite you and judge x you right all that stuff will still x happen um so that does not require that x law enforcement agents agencies have a a x corporeal being Right This this term x corporeal means like relating to to your x body your flesh kind of a a physical x element so a lot of the people that I x was reading use that term uh to describe x whether or not God was had a corporeal x um being to x him um so nobody would confuse the x judicial system as being like a body in x some sense and yet that expression is x used um Exodus 31 talks about the Finger x of God um we use the Expression to to x point the finger at somebody which x basically means to accuse them or x to uh Point them out of a a crowd right x it doesn't actually require pointing a x finger you could just say you know that x person did it without the x pointing so I I I'm blabbering the point x a little bit but you get the idea is x because these parts of our bodies are so x closely tied to our everyday x experience they the body parts x themselves take on a metaphorical sense x which then is applied to God and that x helps us understand how God thinks x because I think a big takeaway here is x that God very much is a personal being x um he exists and he has feelings and he x does things he acts in in ways that we x can understand and so that's how he's x described to us of course he's not like x us in so many other ways and that's I I x think what we need to appreciate as x well any comments or questions on x this I think this is kind of interesting x because it it kind of takes some of the x the literary understanding of the Bible x right we often think okay what when the x Bible's literal and what's liter literal x and what's um x symbolic right and I think this is a x case where we're talking about we're x using literary Expressions to understand x God x better x when he wants us to understand it he x gives us that parent child relationship x oh yeah right you know like Ben as a as x a new dad you probably never thought you x could love someone so much as Clara x right yeah and so that you know that x that's usually the example he tries to x to give us but his he's way up there x with the love right like yeah we x understand love but his love is way up x there x yeah yeah I think you know the fact that x he teaches us with these these lessons x from everyday life shows that he cares x about us he wants us to get it right x he's trying to lead us to an x understanding of him um in ways that are x not like totally unattainable to x us yeah thanks for sharing x that x um x yeah all right so let let me pull up x another quote from um our x community uh brother Duncan heer wrote a x really well-known book uh called Bible x basics which has been used um x extensively in preaching and teaching x and um in this section of the book x brother Duncan's really focused x on on showing people that God is is a x personal God that he's a God that gets x us that he understands us that we can um x speak to about our problems that he's x not uh distant and removed and x disinterested um you know obviously God x God is Holy he is so much higher than us x like the love that that you describing x Butch it's it's so far removed from us x and yet uh condescends to Men of low x estate right he he meets us where we are x and that's really um brother Duncan's x point in this section but he says some x things about um our Creation in the x image of God uh he he says surely that x means we can infer something about the x real object of which we are but an image x thus God whom we reflect is not x something nebulous of which we cannot x conceive so you know I kind of get the x sense that he's talking about form in x the way that brother John Thomas did as x as being kind of that physical x representation because he goes on to x quote Ezekiel 1 Ezekiel 1's pretty x interesting because in this x um in this chapter he he describes x seeing God he see um let me find my x place x here um yeah Ezekiel 1 verse x 26 you know that's the vision with the x caram and the wheels and the wheels and x it's it's very confusing but it says x above the expans over the kabam's heads x there was the likeness of a throne in x appearance like Sapphire and seated x above the likeness of a throne was the x likeness with a human appearance such x was the appearance of the likeness of x the glory of the Lord and then in x Ezekiel 10 he's referring to this Vision x um these were the living creatures that x I saw underneath the god of Israel by x the chibar canal and I knew that they x were caram you know Ezekiel 1 x specifically describes as being at the x kear canal so chapter 10's referring x back to that Vision in chapter one and x you can see that the the relation that x the the you know the caram underneath uh x the throne the one with the the likeness x of a human appearance above the caram x enthroned above the caram um you know x chapter 10 makes it expit explicit that x this talking about the God of Israel it x says that the god of Israel had the x likeness with the human x appearance so that's that's really x interesting right so Ezekiel in some x sense was SE being god x enthroned x um and then um brother Duncan goes on to x connect this with Christ teaching to x render therefore unto Caesar the things x that are Caesars and render to God the x things that are Gods remember Jesus had x held up the Daenerys he said whose image x and superscription is on this coin so x Caesar's image is on it so give it to x him God's image is on you so give x yourself to God that's Jesus's whole x point so you have um there's not a lot x lot of references to this idea of man x being made in God's image and likeness x um particularly in the Old Testament um x but clearly G this is something Jesus is x referencing um so so Duncan mentions x that x um nevertheless I think even with Jesus x doing that he he Jesus can teach x spiritual lessons about physical objects x so just because the physical coin is in x Caesar's image doesn't mean that we are x literally in the form of a physical God x so you can kind of see where I'm trying x to approach that I'm trying to x understand well you know how am I x supposed to think about God who's you x know omnipotent omniscient he's um he's x all powerful he knows everything he's in x all x places x um when scripture says When God says uh x Heaven is my throne and the Earth is my x foot stol am I supposed to x imagine some place up where the stars x are that God is seated and he's got his x feet on the earth I I don't think that's x really the intent of a passage like that x um it's supposed to show that his he is x in an exalted place and and and x um yeah so these are the sort of the x things that I'm pondering trying to x understand this x um I don't know if it's it as in to to x others that God is not like a physical x being or or maybe there is a variety of x opinion on that does does anybody have x thoughts or perspectives to x share I've always understood God as uh x you know sometimes referred to as the x eternal spirit is sort of being x everywhere and and not being constrained x to one specific location or anything x like that so when we speak of God as x being enthroned the idea is that he is x he is reigning as a king um not that x he's sitting x somewhere x yeah I think of God working you know so x closely with the angels with the angels x working so closely with god um like when x you think of x creation the Angels x helped you know helped with the creation x so um we also x see um writings about angels reporting x back to God about what they've seen and x what they've been doing or God sending x them on like little missions so um when x I think of God being everywhere I think x he has the help of the angels to do that x that's a good point that's so they're an x extension of his his x presence all right so I I should kind of x say at the outset here that you know x this is a topic that I'm I'm learning x about and and trying to understand I'm x grappling with it myself so I'm not x going to make a whole lot of statements x about this is exactly what I think right x I'm going to try to review this in x somewhat of an open-minded fashion I x want to look at uh what others have x written about this that's why I was x concerned to see what John Thomas and x Duncan heaser and I think I had some x Harry Whitaker in there um so if anybody x wants those references I'm happy to x provide them um outside of our community x um I wanted to get a sense of the Jewish x perspective of this topic um so I'd like x share quote from A Man Called Moses U x mamones who lived from 1135 to x 124 um ad he was a preeminent medieval x Jewish x philosopher Rabbi and x physician um mamones was born in Spain x he later settled in Egypt where he x became the leader of the Jewish x community in Cairo um so he had a lot of x interactions with with uh Christians x certainly Jews Jews Arabs U x Muslims um he was best known for his x Magnus magnumopus um Guide to the x perplexed uh so this was a philosophical x Treatise that sought to reconcile um x Jewish teachings with some of the uh x Greek philosophy other intellectual x traditions of his time um so you can see x an ancient depiction of him um teaching x sorry about that um and then more x recently a Israeli shekele note with his x depiction um on it I think that was from x the 60s I don't know if he's still on x the Shuckle note or not x um so quoting from from that that text x that I mentioned the guide for the x perplexed um he's very interested in x this question of of man being made in x God's image and likeness um and so he F x he first acknowledges the objections of x people who take these depictions of x God's arm his eyes his ears as being x very literal as God being having a form x having ears eyes feet all these things x so he says some have been of the opinion x that by the Hebrew ZM the shape and the x figure of a thing is to be understood x and this explanation led men to believe x in the corporeality there's that word x again um corporeality of the Divine x being they adhered Faithfully to this x View and thought that if they were to x relinquish it they would by that very x act reject the truth of the Bible and x further if they did not conceive God as x having a body possessed of face and x limbs similar to their own in appearance x they would have to deny even the x existence of God the sole difference x which they admitted was that he excelled x in greatness and Splendor and that his x substance was not flesh and blood you x can see there a reference to 1 x Corinthians 15 flesh and blood cannot x inherit the x Kingdom um but he's talking about the x sort of people that that see you know x um Isaiah 65 uh Heaven is my Throne the x Earth is my foot stol and think x literally this is talking about God x being seated somewhere in the heavens x um um let's see here so he goes on to x offer uh his understanding so so he x acknowledges the one perspective and he x offers another x um as man's distinction consists in a x property which no other creature on x earth possesses um namely his x intellectual x perception in the exercise of which he x does not employ his senses nor move his x hand or his foot so he's talking about x something that's happening in our brain x our intellectual perception that is not x related to other brain functions right x so the the functions you need to to to x eat or to to go somewhere um he's saying x that that's sort of the ordinary thing x that even animals have right clearly x animals are he's looking for a x distinction something that sets Man x Apart from every other creature of the x earth and recall from two weeks ago we x said you know image and likeness that x man bears that was unique in creation x only of humankind did God say let us x make man in our image and likeness so x what's the distinguishing thing about x Mankind he says it it's this x intellectual x perception um this perception has been x compared though only apparently not in x truth to the Divine perception which x requires no corporeal organ um so I x think again the point here x is you could be to be a little bit crude x you could be a paraplegic you could have x be um you know have total loss of your x nervous system and still have a you know x a functioning bright active inner life x um you don't necessarily need to have a x body um or control over bodily functions x to have this intellectual perception x he's talking about x so on this account um in other words on x account of the Divine intellect which x with which man has been endowed he is x said to have been made in the form and x likeness of the almighty but again far x be it from us that the notion of the x Supreme Being is corporeal having a x material form so he's very much against x the idea of God having a body the way x that we would conceive of of corporeal x form um so I think the point here is is x is AB no chimpanzee has ever written x poetry right um we're solve for x in an x algebraic equation um and more x significantly animals don't think about x Divine things they don't have the x capacity for spiritual thoughts um so x his argument is that that intellectual x perception the ability to conceive of x God and to think of higher things um x then what do I eat where do I get rest x how can I escape my my enemies or x predators x um that's what distinguishes man from x the animals x um so yeah I I I think that criteria x does meet it is something that x distinguishes us from uh the rest of the x animal x kingdom um I do wonder how much you know x being a Jewish philosopher and observing x the growth of Christianity maybe some of x mamones perspectives might have been x influenced by the fact that the x trinitarian uh Dogma was being put for x forward which says that God showed up in x human form and so as as a Jew he would x have been opposed to that um but the x nominal reason given for this view is x that um he the Jewish audience had this x prohibition on graven images which is a x huge part of their identity right that x they were not to serve Idols um so in x kind of basic terms you might have x thought of this like God told us not to x make graven images because he can't be x represented by physical things x so that's true right God did tell them x not to make graven x images he is not to be represented by x idols and sculptures or things for by x hand and he can't be represented by I x think that's why he wants us to x represent him in our characters right if x we say that God can be adequately x represented by this statue or this x carved thing I chisel x that's that's what God is right like x like the uh the golden calf right this x is the god that brought you out of Egypt x well no it's not the god that brought x you out of Egypt is is holy and x righteous and true and and all these x other characteristics that the calf x doesn't tell you anything about and so x for humankind you know this is like x spoiler alert a little bit but I think x the whole idea with bearing God's image x and likeness is that we are supposed to x be representing his character we're x supposed us be manifesting God um x through our words and our actions our x behaviors having been influenced by the x the mind of the spirit um and that x really any sort of representation in x physical terms right a picture of God or x a it's just inadequate it's not it's not x enough x um so I there's part of what he's saying x here that I think kind of makes sense um x but I'll leave it to you to kind of x decide where you land on on some of x these questions any any questions or x comments and likeness was you know we do x have that capability to worship God and x to think like him like you said the x animals um don't and um you know natural x man will will will go on his own x Instinct right you know when God is x describing in Daniel uh the Nations x right they're beasts right they go on x their own natural feed themselves x natural you know when we say ah my you x know my gut tells me it's probably x wrong right so we're supposed to be x Godlike thinking and uh yeah that's when x we uh can take in the word and de and x that's the only way we're going to x develop that character of God that we uh x like you said that's what we're supposed x to be doing that's what God wanted right x yeah I figured while we were on this x topic of of uh kind does God have a x bodily form and all these these x questions which the more we talk about x this I I think we're kind of concluding x hey maybe that's a secondary issue maybe x the real issue is like exhibiting God's x character um and that's where our focus x should be x but as long as the questions open about x you know does is God does he have a form x does he take up space these sorts of x abstract more philosophical than x theological questions in some ways um x you know okay so the Jews were x prohibited from making images of God um x but they weren't forbidden to write x about him so in Ezekiel we do see that x you know yeah Ezekiel Saw something x right he had a vision of something and x that something was supposed to be God x and God is described as having a human x appearance and likeness you think about x the description of of God in in Daniel x where uh Daniel encounters the the x Ancient of Days um I think it's it x describes his his his eyes are like fire x and um his hair is like a like wool or x something like that right so he he's x seeing some depiction of of what God x looks x like um if they had just taken those x written words and kind of translated x into Like A A A visual representation it x would have been like Pro it would have x been violating what God had told them to x do but it was okay for them to write x about what God looked like so is this x what really what God looks like what x they're writing or was this how God x appeared to them again you know the way x he appears to us talking about his arm x and his eyes um kind of speaking to us x in a in a more of a symbolic way and are x we supposed to understand something in x symbol from um from the way the prophets x saw God I I just want to share something x kind of interesting you know as long as x we're talking about uh sort of the x Jewish perspective here um in in the x talmud x um says I saw the Lord right so this is x the I believe that the T mode is the x oral Torah uh which was kind of handed x down word of mouth until one day they x decide hey we need to write this down we x we need to written record of this or x it's going to get corrupted right um so x the talet is that written record which I x think was like in the 3D Century or x something like that after x Christ um so I saw the Lord is to be x understood as is taught in the world x twirl all of the prophets observed their x prophecies through an obscure Looking x Glass um and there's a word used here x which is borrowed from the Greek it's x obviously in the Hebrew Torah um this x obscure Looking Glass it's a special x kind of word here x their prophecies were given as x metaphoric Visions but were not a direct x perception of the matter however Moses x our Master observed his prophecies x through a clear Looking Glass he gained x a direct and accurate perception of the x matter um so so the idea of of the x Looking Glass is is a mirror it's a a x reflecting glass that you can see x reflection x through um so is this ringing a bell for x any anybody this this idea of an obscure x Looking Glass and you know but Moses saw x clearly is that any Echoes ringing any x bells yes that's the one that I thought x of and I I didn't even I I totally found x this thing in the x about in in the the Tet x with without starting at that point so I x was like this this is ringing a bell x here there's some connection it's to 1 x Corinthians chapter 13 um bringing to x Corinth Paul States for now we see in a x mirror dimly but then face to face now I x know in part then shall I know fully e x even as I have been fully x known and I can't help but wonder if x this is something that that Paul had x encountered at some point in his x training as a Pharisee that he had heard x this idea of the the prophets getting a x glimpse of God but not not a full x picture just you know some sort of a dim x like you're looking through a a glass x that has like my truck right now it's x covered in salt you know I can't really x see out of it the backup camera I was x like trying to get into my spot it's x like I don't think I'm going to hit x anything um but we don't have the full x picture right now but we do expect to at x some point in the future the comment x from the Torah is that Moses really had x a an encounter with God that was unlike x any of the other prophets that he saw x God more clearly than x anybody um who who followed x him um so the verse I want to go to is x in Deuteronomy CH 34 um and verse x 10 there's not risen a prophet since in x Israel like Moses and the Lord knew face x to x face I I think that's where when it says x our master Moses observed his prophecies x through a clear Looking Glass I think x it's a reference to this idea from x Deuteronomy 34 that really there there x wasn't anybody like uh Moses with whom x God x spoke um I don't think this common in x Deuteronomy 34 makes sense for Moses x himself to have included right Moses x wrote the pentiuk but the pentiuk also x includes Moses's death so clearly there x was some editorial additions over x time so the editor in this case is x making the comment that there has not x risen a prophet since Moses right so x Ezekiel and Daniel perhaps uh included x among them x um Let me let me share another one when x Aaron and Miriam oppose Moses right x there there's that Rebellion God calls x them out in the tent of meeting x um I'm going to start a little earlier x than what's on screen uh numbers 12:5 x the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud x and stood at the entrance of the tent x and called Aaron and Miriam they both x came forward and he said hear my words x if there's a prophet among you I the x Lord make myself known to him in a x vision I speak with him in a dream right x so so I will speak to a prophet but I x speak to Moses differently not so with x my servant Moses he is faithful in all x my house he doesn't get the vision or x the dream with him I speak mouth to x mouth clearly and not in riddles and he x beholds the form of the Lord why then x were you not afraid to speak against my x servant x Moses um really interesting this this x word that's translated riddles it's the x same word that's translated um Enigma in x First Corinthians 13 do I have on the x screen x H I think it's the word dimly in the x ESV now we see in a mirror dimly um it's x this in the Greek version of the Old x Testament um it's it's the word that I x don't speak to Moses in x riddles I don't speak to him dimly uh he x beholds the form of the Lord so there's x another connection x there x um yeah so clearly clearly Moses is um x has a different experience of God than x than anyone that followed x him x um x so another example of this is in Exodus x 33 remember before they had the x Tabernacle um they had the tent of x meeting so it was a different tent um x that Moses would go into um read that x Moses when Moses entered the tent the x pillar of cloud would descend and stand x at the entrance of the tent and the Lord x would speak to Moses thus the Lord used x to speak to Moses face to face as a man x speaks to his his x friend right so the way you speak to x your friends you you can imagine your x friend's face and their reactions to x what you're saying and kind of the x intimacy of a face-to-face conversation x right in the zoom era it's like okay I I x can talk to my co-workers or something x on Zoom right but if they're in the same x building as me like I might just go to x their desk so we can have a face to face x conversation because it's it's closer x right it's more meaningful in some ways x you just don't get that through a Less x Direct form of x communication and that's what God's x saying about his interaction with Moses x he spoke to him face to x face the kind of intriguing thing here x is that in the same chapter God says you x cannot see my face and live um let's x pull that x up so the context almost forces you to x kind of grapple with this issue what x does it mean he spoke to Moses face to x face and then he says later you can't x see my face right if you speak to God x the way that man speaks to his friend x well when you speak to your friend x usually you can see their face um that's x a big part of like this common x interaction that we have um so the the x KE and delich commentary says x that what's it say x Ben the words are transferred x anthropomorphically from man to God so x the IDE is anthr morphos is like man x changing x it's applying traits that belong to x mankind to other things um because human x language and human thought can only x conceive of the nature of the absolute x Spirit according to the analogy of the x human form as the inward nature of man x manifests itself in his face and the x sight of his back gives only an x imperfect and outward view of him so x Moses saw only the back and not the face x of Jehovah Yahweh um so this is where x God says you know you can't see my face x and live I I'll show you my x back and so you know the the sun here is x you know even Moses with as intimate of x a relationship as he had with God he x wasn't seeing the fullness of God's x glory he was experiencing it in part um x to some extent I hope that makes sense x so when it says he speaks to Moses face x to face that's still an idiomatic x expression because um I think it's in 1 x Timothy it's says that no man can see x God and live right and and God says that x to Moses in this very same chapter So x speaking to him face to face as a man x speaks to his friend is it's still an x idiom for very close communication but x Moses didn't actually see the face of x God x yeah I I I agree with that that makes x sense to x me any other perspectives any x conflicting x opinions oh the people online want to x hear you x but I think God shifts his form like he x was in a cloud he showed parts of his x body um you know to help men understand x he has to speak to us in a way that x we're going to understand or perceive x him to try to interpret that to be to x understand how to follow him and what x he's trying to tell us and I think of x when Moses um shined after he spoke with x God I don't think any of the other x prophets x did if you think about it right we don't x hear hear of them sh their faces glowing x when they came down from talking to God x so that's what that special relationship x is too like that's how close God was to x him and how he interacted with x him yeah that's that's a good connection x given the face of of Moses Moses shining x think about the to be that close to God x like God came down that that's what that x face to face was that x intimate um conversation that was had it x was no confusion in that conversation to x trick him or he wanted he wanted x everyone to understand what he wanted x the people to do and how to worship x him x yeah I I don't know the only other one I x can think of is is Jesus on the Mount of x transfiguration x right uh let's x see all right so let's wrap this up um x uh there's the reference in Timothy if x you want x it um whom no one has ever seen or can x see um so just to summarize right we x have holy men in the Old Testament who x saw representations of God in some form x Ezekiel Daniel even in the book of x Exodus you have Aaron and the 70 elders x of Israel who go like partway up the x mountain right it says that that they x saw the god of Israel under his feet was x a pavement of sapphire says they beheld x God in in Exodus chapter x 24 so in some sense you know Aaron and x the elders saw saw god um but it wasn't x the fullness of the experience that that x Moses experienced um we didn't really x get into Exodus 33 and 34 too much um x where go Moses asked God to show him his x glory and his ways and God says I can't x show you my my face Moses asked to see x his x glory so his glory is actually x proclaimed in Exodus 34 where he he x Reveals His Name to Moses and his name x is is associated with his character and x so this kind of comes full circle to x what we talking about the beginning x where it's it's really God's character x that we should be more concerned about x this whole question of of God's form you x know is he does he take up physical x space all these things it it's sort of x secondary um in in my mind anyway x um so um although Moses did have a very x close relationship with God he didn't x see God's face x fully um but in whatever sense that that x God may be seen this is part of our hope x right um we'll just have to go through x these verses very quickly but we we x already saw 1 Corinthians 13 that there x is hope to encounter God face to face in x the future um in the Beatitudes blessed x are the pure in heart for they shall see x God um Hebrews 12 strive for peace and x for Holiness without which no one will x see the Lord so again character x attributes that are required to to fully x encounter x god um and then in Revelation God's x servants will see his face and his name x will be on their foreheads so in x whatever sense we're supposed to x understand seeing the face of God God x and and maybe it is the fullness of his x character and in complete Holiness and x uprightness um maybe there is some x physical form or or way that we will x with our eyes see God um you know we do x tend to look at the natural and then x Elevate the spiritual but there's x usually is a real natural underg guring x to a lot of these lessons that we learn x um so maybe there is x um a you know a less than spiritual x sense that we'll encounter God x um but for now our present concern x should be with God's name bearing um so x when we think about bearing God's image x and likeness I think the direction that x we want to go with this is in the x spiritual sense of of God's moral x uprightness his x righteousness so um God willing next x week we'll we'll take this into the New x Testament where we see um we see Jesus x Christ who is called the the image the x complete um oh Hebrews chapter 1 x verse3 uh I don't want to misquote x it but basically the sense of of Jesus x being the perfect representation of his x father um the way that we are to be x being the brightness of his glory the x express image of his person and x upholding All Things by his word so x Jesus as the express image the perfect x representation of his father um so x that's x it

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um so yeah uh just in terms of let's do x a little bit of followup um during the x week I got an email from from Brother x Bruce and Brother Bruce was commenting x on the uh the supposed conflict we see x in Exodus 33 where it says that um that x God spoke to Moses face to face as a man x speaks to his friend and then just a few x verses later in the chapter it says no x man can see my face and live um and I x agree with Brother Bruce we really we x have to resolve that that kind of x conflict um so you know let me this is x Bruce W yeah brother Bruce W from x Southern New Hampshire I guess he was x joining us last x week so um here's the verses we're x talking about um brother Bruce's x suggestion was that this expression x seeing a man face to face speaking to x Moses face to face as a man speaks to x his friend is really idiomatic it's a a x turn of phrase in a way um and it x signifies the presence of God being in x God's presence not literally seeing x God's face um just as an example I I've x had many Zoom meetings with people at x work um who I've never met in person um x you know I've seen their face on zoom x and then one day they're in the office I x say oh it's nice to finally meet you x face to face well I've seen their face x before but I I've never been in their x presence and so that's the suggestion is x that that Moses in some sense was very x intimately in the presence of God when x he stood in the tent of the congregation x uh the tent of meeting um but but he x wasn't actually seeing any you know x physical face of God the way we might x imagine seeing somebody else's face um x so hopefully that that helps folks with x that that conflict another interesting x thing to support this is that the same x word translated face in verse 11 and x verse uh 21 and 23 appears in between x God said said my presence will go with x you and I will give you rest in this x case it's the word face is translated as x presence so I think that gives a lot of x credence to uh brother Bruce's x suggestion um just wanted to share that x with you all another comment I thought x was interesting comes from the Robert x alter translation on this this passage x where God says you shall see my back but x my face shall not be x seen um alter in this commentary says x volumes of theology have been spun out x of these enigmatic words Imagining the x deity in frankly physical terms was x entirely natural for the ancient x monotheists this God had or at least x could assume a concrete manifestation x which had front and rear face and back x and that face man was forbidden to see x but such concreteness does not imply x conceptual x navite through it the Hebrew writer x suggests an idea that makes good sense x from later theological perspectives that x God's intrinsic nature is inaccessible x and perhaps intolerable to the finite x mind of man I think this is kind of what x we were saying last week it's you know x God revealed himself to us in his x fullness we just it'd be too much for us x to take in x um something of his attributes his x goodness what altar calls the x directional pitch of his ethical x intentions the Afterglow of the x effulgence of his presence can be x glimpsed by humankind x um it's some pretty flowery language to x describe you know something that that's x too much for us but we just get a sense x of of who God is and how how awesome he x truly is um so I think that's kind of x fascinating to think x about let's x see so thank you uh Brother Bruce for x for sharing that thought um I I found it x quite helpful hopefully you all did as x well um so we've been looking looking at x this this idea of man having been made x in God's image and likeness which comes x from Genesis 1: x 26 um trying to understand what exactly x that means for us today x um if we look at the context of Genesis x the next closest direct reference to x this concept is in Genesis chter 5 Adam x lived 130 years and begat a son in his x own likeness after his image and called x his name x Seth um so the the Hebrew words for x image and likeness uh used in Genesis x 1.6 this is the only other verse in all x of scripture where they appear together x um and if you look at the x context so I've got 2728 from Genesis 1 x on the left I've got Genesis x 5 um on the right so these are the only x two PA places where image and likeness x are used together and you can see x there's there's a lot of similarities in x in sort of the themes there's there's x four points that are reiterated in x Genesis 5 uh that come from Genesis 1 x one that was that human was made in x God's image and likeness two that two x genders were given three that there was x a blessing given to x humankind and finally for a description x of human flourishing with the x instruction to be fruitful and multiply x in chapter one it's now being fulfilled x in chapter 5 through x Seth so Adam had a son his son had Sons x and Daughters they were in Adam's image x just as Adam was in God's image uh if x Adam's image and likeness after the fall x was any different than it had been when x he was created um this this connection x between verse one and verse three of x Genesis chapter 5 wouldn't make sense x right so verse one here reiterating that x man was made in God's image that's x that's bringing us back to Genesis CH 1 x and so it's there to connect it with x Adam's son's Seth and the fact this x image and likeness of God was being x passed on to to Adam's descendants so x the the thought here is that man always x had a mandate from God to image God's x characteristics right we talked about x you know this is more than just God's x appearance you know the human form the x body the head the the hand of God you x know the you know the eyes of the of God x this is this is actually God's x characteristics to take it to a higher x spiritual plane so the idea is that x through x man God's image and likeness would be x propagated throughout his creation and x so now this is happening through Seth x right the seed of the woman who is you x know essentially replacing Abel who was x murdered by his x brother so hopefully that makes sense x any questions or comments on x that so this is one of only three places x in the Old Testament where I can see x this idea of image and likeness being x directly um referred back x to x yes the idea of um you know seeing God x face to face that you were bringing out x there I like your your comments there in x Isaiah chapter 63 it refers back to uh x the children of Israel in the wilderness x and it you mention the presence there it x says in verse 9 in all their Affliction x he was afflicted in the angel of his x presence and so there's this tie in x there to what I've heard commentary on x before you know we have Michael the x Archangel there's also an angel named x Yahweh right so um the angel of his x presence saved them in his love and in x his pity he redeemed them and he bear x them and carried them all the days of x old and so it would have been this idea x that rather than seeing the face of God x it was the angel of his x presence that he would have seen at that x time and that would have been not the x full glory of God but why Moses's face x would have shined and it would have been x you know that likeness in the angel of x his presence so that's x another uh just something to think about x there yeah I think when when the three x men come to Abraham on the plains of x Mamay right and two of them go on to x Sodom and and one of them sticks behind x and speaks and that one that stays x behind is is called Yahweh right so you x know Yahweh appears as a man it makes x sense that that's an angel representing x the name of God uh to Abram I think x that's kind of in alignment with your x the idea of the angel of God's presence x same with the uh the captain of the x Lord's host and x Joshua um you know who who who are you x on neither neither um I I believe that x the angel there uh who we presume to be x an angel is also called x Yahweh so that's an interesting thought x thanks x Jason um yeah so let's see here so the x the question I was kind of muddling over x was um you know is there some sense in x which the image of God was depleted x after the fall um so let's take a look x at that th this is a quot from Brother x John Thomas and elpus Israel ad's mental x capacity enabled him to comprehend and x receive spiritual ideas which moved him x to veneration hope conscientiousness the x expression of his view views affections x and so forth Seth was in the likeness as x well as in the image of Adam and in the x same sense they were both after the x likeness of the x Elohim right so this is Brother John x Thomas's comment on Genesis 5 uh x um you x know brother Thomas is connecting Seth x image and likeness back to God through x his father Adam um you know in the Book x of Genesis 17 times we have the x expression that every living creature uh x procreated after its own kind right um x 17 times we we see that you know you x know the the The Offspring of each type x of animal in the animal kingdom look x looks or has some image and likeness you x know after its own kind so man is after x the Divine kind in a sense and so for x Seth to you know represent the image and x likeness of his father Who Bore the x image and likeness of God it's kind of x passing on that likeness that's the x sense that I got here um and and brother x Thomas seems to agree with x that um that they were both at the x likess of Elohim you know but brother x Thomas goes on to say this though Adam x was made in the image and after the x likeness of the Holy ones the simil has x been so greatly marred that his x posterity present but a faint x representation of either I have to admit x I was a little taken aback by by reading x this um you know so many others of the x kind of the judeo-christian worldview x have used man's Creation in God's image x uh as the fundamental basis for the x sanctity of human life basic human x dignity Harmony between all types of x mankind that there's this essential x thing that all human beings have that x comes from God that sets them apart from x the Animal Kingdom and if you you look x at Genesis 1:26 and x 27 the let us make man after our image x and likeness and God created man after x his image those two phrases in between x it is sandwiched this mandate that x mankind have dominion over God's x creation um so the idea of of man's x Dominion his place uh in Authority um x elevated above the the animal kingdom x and the rest of creation really is tied x to this this image bearing quality in x some x respect um yeah so so to hear you know x that that this Authority was was taken x away yes we of course we affirm that um x you know after the fall you know there x was a change in the way that things x existed in in creation um and and for x brother prise this also means that the x the image and likeness was was reduced x to a very great extent so you know I I'm x not taking any kind of position here um x I I I just wanted to highlight that x there's another way that this has been x seen um you know in popular culture this x this idea that there is something uh x from God in mankind you know it's the x basis for this book that kind of got me x into the study made by Design in God's x image our self-esteem ultim Ely rests in x the belief that each one of us is made x in the image and likeness of God x um uh another one um from Martin Luther x King the image of God is universally x shared in equal portions by all men uh x he wrote this just a year before his x death his assassination every human x being has etched in his personality the x indelible stamp of the x Creator the worth of an individual does x not lie in the measure of his intellect x his racial origin or his social position x human worth lies in relatedness to God x an individual has value because he has x value to x God x um so you know I I I think we can talk x about the extent to which mankind x imagees God you know if I don't think x any of these statements are incompatible x with the sense that some of that image x and likeness was lost in accordance with x the fall the point here really is that x this is the common thing that all men x and women have x um and you know whether or not it's to x the extent that it exists in the garden x I think probably not I Think Jesus all x the old I'm sorry New Testament teaching x about Jesus Christ shows us that there x that he was the one who perfectly x represented his father and that mankind x today just simply doesn't do it but in x mankind is the latent capacity to do x such the the spiritual the the ability x to receive spiritual things the the x higher thought the decision-making x process um the kind of the independent x will that God has given to each of us um x and the responsibility that we have um x the animals kingdom does not have x responsibility to one another the way x that humankind does so just a a few kind x of perspectives on this idea to mull x over any any comments or questions yeah x a couple I think brother Chris first and x then brother x Steve x uh before we move too far from the x subject of uh Seth and the uh perhaps to x help us distinguish between likeness and x image that there there could be two x different points being made there uh x Seth being in the line of seed of woman x uh and the sons of God ultimately uh and x connecting that with x Abel and it's I think if we get to x Abel's x offering and the fact that it was done x in spirit and Truth which was a x representation and reflection of God's x purpose and plan might give us some x inkling as the distinction between x likeness and image so that all man may x be in his likeness but not all worship x worshiping in His image of of what is x true uh so perhaps that is giving us x that that link of Seth uh versus Cain's x line where it's not saying that Cain is x in the image of God uh will give us some x you know some idea as to what image is x more about versus just x likeness thanks brother x Chris I think the um the thing that came x to my mind Ben was um you had brought us x to Genesis 5 where it talks about uh x Adam having lived 130 years he had a son x in his own likeness and you had also x talked about uh the fall and I think x that um when I think of the image and I x think of the x Fall Adam and Eve were given a x choice uh the choice was to obey Godly x thinking or to obey serpent-like x thinking and I think um each one of us x has that same Choice whose image will we x bear we will will we bear the image of x God in our in our interactions with x other humans or will we be bearing the x image of the x serpent and in um the next chapter x Genesis chapter 6 I I get a sense of x that um Genesis chapter 6 begins and it x says when man began to increase in x number on the earth and daughters were x born born to them and and what I want to x just bring out this idea that the sons x of God saw that the daughters of men x were x beautiful and I think the idea that I x have in reading that is that you've got x two classes of humans there those that x are bearing the image of God the sons of x God and you've got the other class which x is the daughters of men um which are x bearing the image of the x serpent so I think that uh my takeaway x is that we have the propensity to sin we x have the propensity to follow the image x of Serpent of The Serpent and uh do you x know to think serpent thoughts and our x desire is to do the x opposite uh to to Bear God's image in x all our interactions as Jesus x did yeah that's so so taking it from x something that's a a design x characteristic something that's uh a x choice um to Bear God's image or or or x not to Bear the image of the serpent I x guess um yeah I you know I I I think x there's got to be something fundamental x here because God created man you know x man didn't choose to be in God's image x originally um Seth when s Seth was born x you know I'm sure in some way he looked x like his father um you know as he x developed and grew maybe he took on some x of his father's characteristics things x like that some of those things um are x not chosen but when you take it to the x higher spiritual plane and say well we x have we do have a choice god-given x choice to represent him right that's x that's what Seth ultimately did choose x that's what Cain ultimately did not x choose um that's what Jesus x chose um that that makes a lot of sense x to me x any other questions or x comments along that same line you know x what Seth did inherit from his father x was that propensity to sin certainly x right I mean I think that was the IM x that was part of what he inherited x certainly x yeah x um but that's Steve would you agree that x that's probably not what you know when x it says that Seth x was well I think that's an interesting x question right um you know if if verse x three of Genesis 5 stood on his own and x said that he fathered you know Adam x fathered the son in his likeness and His x Image it would be clear yes this this is x the Fallen image that that Seth is x inheriting but because it's in the x context of Genesis 5:1 it seems to be x passing along this image of God that was x originally in Adam that then has passed x on x you know I I don't really have the x answer here I think we need to look at x this from a larger frame we have to x acknowledge you know scripture does x teach that man is fall and that he has x the propensity sin and how does that x concept tie in with this image bearing x quality that was passed from God to Adam x and Adam to Seth um you know in in x brother John Thomas's terms it was it x was a very greatly marred image that was x passed along um it was not the perfect x Perfect Image in which God had designed x mankind um so I I think that that makes x a lot of sense I think there is some x sense in which man has some innate image x bearing quality it's I would call it a x latent capacity it's the potential um x you know and certainly when man behaves x like the animals he's disregarding that x potential for development um and he's x not Imaging God in the fullness in which x he was designed to do x so brother you have another x one well again to just to try and help x the distinguish the idea of image x between the animal kingdom and the human x capacity uh no greater love hath any man x than to lay down his life for his x brother try to teach an animal to do x that okay uh it's just not in them to x have that capacity to uh to x self-sacrifice so I I think that's the x capacity within man that he can love x like God he can he has that capacity to x imagine that and to try to pursue it and x it makes him different uh than the x animal x kingdom all right so part of my Approach x is when I do a study like this is just x to to see what others have said um you x know whether or not I agree you know I I x still want to know what sort of thoughts x have been shared on the subject uh just x to kind of Orient myself to get some x perspective this is a you know these are x deep Waters people have been discussing x what exactly this means for a long time x and the fact of the matter is you got x you need to look at all scripture but x there aren't a lot of texts that speak x directly to this idea of man Imaging and x bearing God's image and likeness in the x Old Testament I think when we get to the x New Testament we see Jesus as the x expressed image of God x sorry keep losing this um and it becomes x a little more clear so we we will get to x those those those passages in the New x Testament um but I wanted to just do a x quick historical review I'm not going to x get into the habit of of quoting x Catholic theologians but just for x backgrounds um Augustine believed that x man was created in the image and x likeness and he connected image and x likeness with having the power of reason x and understand standing um right so this x is not the most exalted sense in which x man can be said to Bear God's image and x likeness but he does connect it with um x the man being distinguished from all x irrational creatures won't spend a lot x of time on this um Thomas aquinus um you x know a little more complex a little more x Nuance said we can image God in three x ways initially in that man possesses a x natural aptitude for understanding and x loving God uh which is Comm common to x all men so he said this is something x that's that's General um and clearly x we've seen that's not always developed x in mankind so ainus said that secondly x in as much as Man actually and x habitually knows and loves God though x imperfectly so this is man kind that is x enlightened and and is moving towards x God becoming a moving towards Christ and x his Perfect Image bearing quality and x then finally in as much as man knows and x loves God perfectly and this image x consists in the like of Glory so in in x this Theologian mind the idea was that x there's some kind of base level in which x Man was created in God's image and x likeness but this needs to be developed x to higher levels of understanding both x in the present in the lives of a x disciple and then in the future in the x in the uh life of a glorified Saint so x we'll just leave it at that um Luther x had a very different kind of view of x things x um Luther said since this image of God x has been lost by sin whereas Thomas says x so greatly marred Luther says completely x lost we can never fully attain to the x knowledge of what it was memory mind and x will we do most certainly possess right x so remember that for Augustine and x aquinus that was sort of the lowest x level of the latter um sort of that x capacity man has for image bearing x um we we do most certainly possess those x things but they are wholly corrupt most x miserably weakened nay that I can speak x with no greater plainness they are x utterly leprous and x unclean um so you know as part of the x Reformation you the the Reformation um x Protestants made a big deal out of man's x total depravity they called it basically x man brings nothing to the table x whatsoever uh the process of that x salvation completely belongs to God I x think for us we see this as more of a x partnership where where yes absolutely x God Saves Us by his grace but we have a x role in that salvation we we submit to x it we um we change our behaviors as a x result of our calling x um uh the the Reformation guys you know x basically they wanted to put man as low x as low so that there could be nothing x said that man is involved in his own x salvation um so I think it was important x for Martin Luther to say you know this x image of God is completely lost uh we x probably find ourselves our theological x position somewhat in in the middle of x the uh the Catholic and the Protestant x theologians uh don't need to spend a lot x of time on that x um let's see I did want to talk a little x bit about this idea of x um x dehumanization so you know regardless of x what we think about the image of God in x man today whether we believe it was x completely lost whether we believe that x it was marred um you know so that was it x was taken x away um we do have to acknowledge that x there is some sense in which man as an x image bear is set above the animals x um whenever this has been denied x throughout history it's led to x disastrous x consequences um during the Holocaust the x Nazi es referred to the Jews as x rats um in the 1990s in Rwanda the hutus x called the tootsies x cockroaches the serbs referred to the x bosnians as aliens um and Indigenous x people today are still sometimes x referred to as Savages now when you take x away that quality of man that sets him x above the x animals uh there's there's nothing wrong x with then Exterminating that life x um so let me just x share uh this this quote um from a Nazi x describes Jews to bacteria that cause x syphilis so are the Jews carriers of x criminality the Jew is the true opposite x to a human being the depraved member of x subra x mixing so comparing Jews to x bacteria describing Jews as sub racial x the opposite of human makes it very easy x to just justify killing x them um this scholar wrote we feel free x to swat a fly or eat a carrot because x it's only a fly it's only a carrot x therefore its life doesn't matter and x Jews could be condemned to the furnaces x of trinka because they were after all x only x Jews x um Leon mugera part of rwanda's then x ruling Hutu party called the minority x Tootsie population x cockroaches um you know he said they x should go back to Ethiopia which which x was their historical Homeland um and x within 2 years of of making the x statement x 800,000 of the rwandans mostly tootsies x died in in a brutal genocide 800,000 x people died um if you start to think of x your fellow man as a cockroach you know x his life doesn't have a lot of x value um and so I mention this because x there's a passage that I mentioned x there's only three references to bearing x image and likeness of of God in the old x Testament and one of them is in Genesis x chter 9 this is the last one so we have x Genesis 1: 26 we have Genesis 5 vers 1 x through3 and now we have Genesis 9 uh x this is After the x flood let me see here am I in the right x place okay so the flood waters have Abad x the ark has come to rest on now errat in x Genesis 9:1 God reiterates the command x to be fruitful and multiply and fill the x Earth so remember we saw that in Genesis x 1 Genesis 5 you have you know Mankind's x flourishing the propagation of humankind x as the way in which God's character is x being passed on and expressed throughout x creation so now basically it's a start x over right and it's just Noah and his x family and so they have to be fruitful x and multiply and fill the Earth so x immediately should sort of be putting us x into a frame of mind of thinking about x propagating God's image throughout the x Earth x so whether the image of God man was x depleted or or marred by the Fall this x verse shows God's original creation of x Man In His Image um it remains x sufficient for the prohibition of x Bloodshed so they're supposed to to fill x the Earth with life and in verse six of x chapter 9 whoever sheds the blood of Man x by man shall his blood be shed for God x made man in his own image x so there there is still some some x quality of mankind that's protected from x Bloodshed x um you know on the basis of how he was x designed um so so that's it um all of x the references to man's image bearing um x bearing the likeness of God they're all x found in Genesis chapter 1 Chapter 5 and x chapter 9 um if anybody knows anything x um elsewhere in the Old Testament I'd x really be interested to know about that x because I couldn't find anything there's x a lot of connections to you know the x prohibition on graven images which I I x do think is a connected Concept in terms x of of man's image bearing um I I x couldn't find anything x so I think we'll probably wrap up in x just a minute x um there are two other direct references x in the New x Testament um James chapter 3 it's x talking about the power of the tongue x with it we bless our Lord and father and x with the tongue we curse people who are x made in the likeness of God so you know x in some sense that's affirming that yes x mankind is in um God's x likeness and also 1 Corinthians 11 for a x man ought not to cover his head since he x is the image and glory of God so I we x have to kind of hold these ideas in x tension that yes man has fallen you know x the image of God is depleted there's x some sense in which we need to be x elevated to perfectly represent God the x way that that Jesus did x um you know we we can think about Adam x in the Garden of Eden and everything was x in harmony with God everything was x perfect and you know until they took the x forbidden fruit things were really good x that's the state that we want to be x elevated to we want to be better x represent present ations of God um not x just in physical form but in kind of the x spiritual x likeness so so yeah we acknowledge that x but I think there's also some evidence x that man continues to be in God's image x in some sense and maybe this is that x latent sense that requires development x um but the ability that man has to x receive spiritual things uh that's not x like anything that the animal kingdom x has and it makes man special it makes x human life special x um so a few thoughts to ponder uh next x week we're going to get into uh how x Jesus was the express image of his x father and look at some of the uh New x Testament texts about this subject so x any any questions or comments before we x wrap brother Chris and then brother x Gordon a lot to make up x for sorry about that but just just AE x oh thank x you all of the manifestations we have x seen the burning bush the giving of the x law on x SI what Jacob saw at the top of the x ladder those were x angels the angel that guided the x children of Israel in the wilderness x bore God's x name God manifested himself through his x angels that's the point I wanted to x make yeah that's x excellent thank you brother Gordon I x think that's very much in line with uh x the the pro the comment brother Jason x made about the angel of God's presence x is sometimes called Yahweh yeah thank x you brother Chris so then uh just one x other thing and it just drives home the x importance of this uh so when we think x of some of the distinct characteristics x of the creation of man it brings us x right to marriage that uh again the x woman was taken out of the man which was x very different than the creation of all x the rest of the animal kingdom 2 by two x and for this cause shall a man leave his x father and mother and cleave unto his x wife x again reflecting the image of what God x was going to do uh with his son and the x and the x Ecclesia that's a very interesting x distinction as well x yeah

Transcript

well good morning x everybody pleased to be with you this x morning um I will be wrapping up today x this is the last class in a series um x focusing on the meeting behind Genesis x 1:26 uh let us make man in our image and x likeness um trying to understand exactly x what that meant how man was made in x God's image and what sort of uh x perspective lessons that can teach us x about what God's doing now and what his x ultimate intention is for x humankind um so just by way of Brief x Review um we've had three classes so far x um in the first class we looked at the x terminology uh what are the meaning of x the words image and likeness they're x Hebrew words um where else are they x used um my conclusion was that these x words can be used interchange to refer x to physical appearance in kind of the x primary sense but that there are shades x of meaning to words in Hebrew as there x is in any language that they have a x variety or spectrum of spectrum of x meanings and that physical x representation isn't the only meaning x they're limited to uh I should x acknowledge also that the image in x likeness um some have suggested that x they have specific meanings uh relative x to one another as well so my conclusion x was that they're interchangeable but I x think there's other views on that as x well x um class two we looked at uh some of x these these Expressions that speak of x God as if he has a physical form right x so the hand of God God says talks about x making his arm bear like rolling up his x sleeves right making his arm bear does x God really have arms does he have a face x that we can see um in many passages of x scripture uh he is described in these x kinds of human terms um so in class 2 we x looked at really the significance of x these Expressions that their literary x advices to help us understand God and x how he acts that he is in fact a x personal God he is relatable to us even x though he is you know an awesome God x he's vast he's Beyond human x comprehension in so many other ways this x is he is portrayed um kind of with these x physical things these uh human anatomy x if you will so the the the main x objective God has in revealing himself x is to present his character so hopefully x the idea of image and likeness that x we're supposed to be bearing um it's not x just our appearance you know how I part x my hair or you know you know these x things that people see we know that God x is so much more concerned about the x inward person and character development x than he is on outward x things um and then last week we looked x at this idea of humankind being designed x to Bear God's image and yet having x fallen having a having a nature which is x prone to sin we're not quite there right x we have a lot of the capacity um we have x the starting materials to be made in x God's image but we're we're not fully x realized in that design intent if that x makes sense um so uh the objective this x class and I think every class up until x now I've been saying know wait until we x get into the New Testament wait until we x look at Jesus you know all of this x becomes a little more clear I think when x we see how scriptures speak of x Jesus um before we get there though and x this will bring us there remember we x spent some time in Exodus 33 talking x about how Moses spoke with God fa to x face as a man speaks to his friend and x just a few verses later we see God say x that no man can see my face and live x right so how do you resolve that the x suggestion was the idea of speaking some x somebody face to face is to be in their x presence so Moses was speaking to God in x the presence of God um but he couldn't x actually see his face now we do know x that um in time God's x presence did rub off on him he had this x this glowing face the skin of Moses's x face shown and they were afraid to come x near him when he came down from the x mount says in Exodus x 34 this was of course the glory that x would be passing away right this was a x permanent Glory it was sort of a x temporary shine that rubbed off on Moses x um until it faded and then he would go x back into the presence of the Lord in x the tent of meeting and you know the the x shine would kind of x reinitiate x um so let's see now we get to the New x Testament and we see the disciples x making a similar request of Moses if you x turn to John x 14 our brother d Hill brought us here x during bible class this week um John x 14 and verse x 6 Jesus said unto him I am the way the x truth and the life no man comes to the x father but by me if you had known me you x would have known my father also and from x henceforth you know him and have seen x him x now here Philip says to x himl show us the father and it sufficeth x us it's like oh we just want to see the x father show us the father Philip says x Jesus said how have I been so long time x with you and yet you have not known me x Phillip he that has seen me hath seen x the father and how sayest thou then show x us the x father all right um so so yeah brother x Dave was focusing on the way um Jesus is x the way the truth is a living person I x am the way the truth and life we don't x have access to the father without him x this is all beautiful stuff he's x teaching to his disciples and then x usually it's Peter that says the x bonehead stuff but this time it's Philip x he says you know it's it's it's all x really nice but just just show us the x father you like just cut to the chase x show us the father and we that'll be x enough for us and Jesus says that's what x I've been trying to show you like I I I x have been trying to show you the father x that's what I'm here to do he God isn't x reclining on a cloud the way that was it x who did the cine Chapel that was um one x of the ren Michelangelo right you know x the one I'm talking about where he's x like laying on the cloud and he's you x know touching Adam or whatever and there x all the baby angels and things um you x know ridiculous that that's that's not x what God looks like um you know even the x way that that Daniel saw him the Ancient x of Days right it describes his hair x being white as wool right so this this x appearance of God you x know even the the Old Testament x scriptural depictions of God are in some x ways inadequate it's it's in the x character of Jesus Christ that we most x closely see who God x is so let's see x here God told Moses what he's like here x here's the the scripture x um you x know when x when when Moses asked to see the glory x of God God says you can't see my face x but I'm going to show you my character x merciful gracious slow to anger x abounding in steadfast love and x faithfulness forgiving iniquity x transgression sin not clearing the x guilty you know so that that's what God x shows Moses what what God's like Jesus x shows human kind um all of these x attributes of God but in the person so x instead of telling them what God's like x Jesus shows his disciples what God is x like and I I thought this from Paul was x really interesting in second Corinthians x for God who said let light shine out of x the darkness has shine in our hearts to x give the light of the knowledge of the x glory of God in the face of Jesus x Christ so if you you can see the the x reference to 2 Corinthians 3 on the left x right there was Moses's face that had x the shine on it that that wore off and x it was terrifying to look at and it was x passing x away and then you have Jesus's face x which has the knowledge of the glory of x God so though though Moses though the x Israelites could not see the face of God x all of us are invited to gaze upon the x face of Jesus uh uh the glory of the x knowledge of God that does not pass away x um that that is permanent steadfast that x is is not terrifying it's it's a it's a x view that we can comprehend we can x understand it's it's relatable it's not x terrifying um all of these are x attributes of of how Jesus manifests his x father any questions or comments on that x just got the x mic who's got a question or comment x first but brother Chris you're always x good for x one x okay all right I'll just bring you to x one more in the context here Hebrews x 1:3 where Jesus is described as the x radiance of the glory of God the exact x imprint of his x nature um the King James version says x the express image of his person um and I x I I like the exact imprint of his nature x because imprint you know that to me that x kind of suggests a creative process x making an impression when you make an x imprint um so the the Greek word for x imprint is is character you might say x hey that's not a Greek word that's an x English word we get it from the Greek it x was a Greek word first so this this word x character um strong dictionary defines x it as a either the tool or the person so x you can think about somebody using a x Graver tool is themselves a Graver right x so they're using a tool to make an x impression uh so by implication the word x means an engraving itself the figure x stamped that is an exact copy or x figuratively a x representation so you know how uh you x know often there's a double meaning to x words right so uh a character can be x like the like the letters in the x alphabet right the the the a looks like x this that's the character that's formed x right but the double meaning is not only x is it the the thing that's formed but x it's the the total kind of um collection x of attributes that make up a person as x well right your character is what you're x like um all of your personality and x behaviors what people come to know of x you is your x character um so I just wanted to to x bring up the online emology x dictionary because this kind of x Distinction um this double meaning of x the x Greek um goes back pretty far so um x again talking about this word character x it's from the word carax which means a x pointed stake you can imagine the x engraving tool like a pointed steel x instrument that can be used to make x marks on a clay tablet that's how you x know in very ancient times they would x they would communicate on tablets um x like a stylus x almost x um let's see most probably preek it came x in helenistic times so during the the x New Testament period helenistic times uh x came by metaphor to mean a defining x quality in individual feature so that x defining quality or individual feature x we might call a x characteristic you know and from from x then and I think it says in the 1600s it x became not just an individual x characteristics but collection which x became our x character so this is the term used when x when Jesus is described as the exact x imprint of God's nature he is an x expression of God's x character x um so again going back to that idea of x this being a creative term it made me x think about um the process of of of like x a hardened steel like a mold or a die x creating an impression on a x workpiece you know I I think of like an x injection molding or casting process um x until very recently I was working on a a x program at work uh x to develop a a pen injector instrument x and it had um I think just seven plastic x molded components so we work with the x supplier to create create tools to x produce these molded parts so you could x take that that fluid plastic and x injection mold it into a tool and the x tool would look like the part that x you're trying to create right it's it's x a mold or it's a casting so the plastic x is molten and it just conforms to x whatever you're filling the plastic into x actually have a picture here of a a uh x die that was used to manufacture a x Lego um so this is an eight cavity tool x you can see there they're they're eight x positions it's a two-sided right because x there's a there's a bottom and a top to x every part so you can see the part on x the left side there is forming the x impression that's on the bottom of the x Lego on the right side you can see the x Legos are still in looks like five of x the eight cavities so you can see all x those features on the unders side of the x Lego are created by the the tool on the x left x um so I I just it just got me thinking x about this this process that we use for x all sorts of created Parts uh all kinds x of manufactured goods today um and from x much earlier times even um are created x using a similar process and I wonder if x this is the sort of thing that scripture x is trying to invoke in our minds that x there's sort of a x master a a master I don't want to call x it a copy but sort of the the thing that x all other things come from right this x tool you can see the placard at the x bottom 120 million Legos were x manufactured using this tool and so x those eight cavities they're the x original ones every single piece can be x traced back to this piece of x equipment and it it got me thinking x about you know God and how Jesus as the x the firstborn of the new creation is the x first part off the tool whenever we x purchase a tool at work the first time x you run it in the press and you shoot x the hot uh plastic into it it's called x first off tool right so that first piece x is the first off tool piece and you look x at it and you measure it and you make x sure it's conforming to all the design x specifications because until that time x there was only ever a plan there's only x ever an engineering drawing with the x schematics and the measurements and uh x you know it's got to be this high and x this wide and you can't have any x burnishes or x blemishes it was all theoretical until x the first off x tool which you know you think about this x Jesus is the word made flesh and God's x master plan to to create this this x perfect human being in His image the one x in in who is going to be the model for x every other human being that that that x follows him um you know it seems like a x pretty good metaphor to me x so yeah go ahead so when you get to the x uh the idea of imprint that certainly x spared the idea of uh the scriptural x concept of being sealed in the forehead x uh and I recall uh a study on that where x it was like the uh wax imprint of the x king to to seal his letters okay that x they would put that wax seal on a letter x to authenticate that this was uh from x the king so you know Revelation speaks x of the Saints being sealed in the x forehead that that imprint was put upon x them and and that's the you know I x believe the image of of Jesus Christ x which uh and and the word face obviously x connects us to the four faces of the x showbread uh you know in the temple and x of course the gospels of uh the eagle x and uh the ox and The Lion and the man x you know so showing those aspects of God x and in manifestation so uh so oh that's x great yeah no I agree x um yeah makes a lot of sense that's the x we should be recognizable by that image x right like it authenticates us as x belonging to God x um I like that any other x comments else he Nancy good to see x you um let's see so carrying on oh I x think the other thing just we're talking x about this this metaphor analogy x you know there's a lot of things that x can go wrong in this molding process too x um there's a lot of uh defects if the x plastic doesn't totally fill in the x cavity you know the parts that come off x if they're still hot they can warp um so x there is a sense in which um even going x through a process like this it's you x know the first time is not always uh x quite right so I I think we're all kind x of continuously going through this this x process so let's get into some more of x the uh the scriptures here uh the next x one I wanted to bring in was Colossians x chapter 1 um and this is a good one to x look at I've just got an excerpt here x but the whole text is is really x helpful yeah so Colossians chap 1:1 15 x he is the image of the invisible God the x firstborn of all creation x um right off the bat I think it's pretty x clear that this this passage is talking x it's using creation language right um x the image of God right that brings us x back to Genesis 126 image and likeness x the firstborn of all creation well x there's an explicit reference to x Creation here x um I want to share this comment from x Brother John Lanbury x um let's see here so in Genesis when God x God said let us make man in our image I x don't think he was talking just about a x single act long ago I think he was x declaring his creative work through the x ages when he is creating men and women x to be like him God's work has always x been to manifest himself in living x beings to create us to be in His x image Jesus is the first man to be x perfectly completed in the image of God x at his resurrection the creative work of x his father was finished as far as his x son was concerned his son one of us but x also fully in the image of God and so x worthy to receive the authority of his x father so firstborn of all creation uh x does not mean that Jesus's creation x preceded Adam and the Animals it's not x talking about the Genesis 1 creation x it's talking about the new creation the x continual work of transformation that x God is working in x mankind um so so Jesus is the the first x of the new creation he's the first to be x perfected in God's image x um so I think I I agree with I think x this is a pretty good summary of of what x scripture is trying to tell us um truly x you know God did make Man In His Image x way back when in Genesis 1 but since x then there's been a need to perfect the x image of God in man um and that's what x Jesus is the firstborn of all creation x it's that that new creation that x perfected creation right so x um yeah let's see so if we look at the x The Wider context here the image of the x invisible God firstborn of all creation x by all by him all things were created x what does it mean that by him you know x we're talking about Jesus by by Jesus x all things were x created people get all wound up about x what this means there's all kinds of x confusion um all things in heaven and on x Earth visible and invisible Thrones or x dominions or rulers or authorities well x there in Genesis 1 there weren't any x Thrones or dominions there weren't any x human principalities on the earth to be x created um so I think that should x suggest this is talking about a future x sort of of creation all things were x created through him and for him so the x word image x here um David Levens had this series in x the tidings magazine about how you're x not supposed to uh say Greek words if x you're not a if if you're not qualified x to do so um pronounce mispronouncing x Hebrew words I think probably gets to x folks who actually know what the Hebrew x words mean and so we're not trying to x say that the the only connection here is x that this this word image or x icon uh it's kind of like your the icons x on your desktop right like your your x computer has computer icons or little x pictures of what the application is x right it's a representation of something x else comes from this Greek word x translated image here icon it's the same x word in the Greek Old Testament in x Genesis 126 let us make man in our image x and likeness it's image is icon so x there's there's a connection there um x more significantly though I think is x that um Christ is the one who comes to x take charge of all Thrones and dominions x and Powers right x so this is Jesus x exercising um the original mandate God x gave to humankind have dominion over all x of the x earth so when we're reading Colossians 1 x this should bring us back to that x creation language in Genesis and we x should be thinking about how Jesus uh x serves a role in fulfilling the original x design intent of x creation um and you know that includes x bearing God's image but also includes x having Dominion over the rest of the x earth we talked about last week that x that mankind you know the status of x mankind is above the animals in some x sense um that man is presently bearing x God's image in some sense but not fully x until Jesus Christ comes and shows us x The Perfect Image and and takes dominion x over all of the x earth um think about Philippians 2 talks x about every knee shall bow at the name x of of Jesus every tongue confess that he x is Lord to the glory of God um that's x not fully happened yet so in some ways x know I think Christ has been perfected x in his character but fulfilling this x mandate to have dominion over all the x Earth that that is still happening right x that won't be completed until the the x kingdom x age all right so we've got x that I would say also x we're talking about Imaging God yeah go x ahead brother Steve yeah Ben I thought x that was really helpful looking at uh x Colossians 1 and 15 and 16 and and x showing that you know the way you've x highlighted the Thrones and dominions x that this is not referring to sort of x the first x creation um but this is referring to a x future creation really helpful to see x that highlighted that way and then x particularly uh showing the Genesis 1 x um comment there to the right on the x slide where um you see that God's God's x purpose was that uh man would have x dominion over all the Earth so yeah so x so if I hear what you're saying God x created the Earth so that man would x represent him they that they would uh x that man would you know take God's x character and sort of spread it over the x Earth man didn't do that fully and so x there's this future creation that uh x Jesus comes and perfectly represents God x Bears God you know the the icon of God x if you will right and that the reference x then to Thrones and dominions is the the x future age am I am I with you that's how x I understand it yeah yeah yeah yeah x really helpful thanks yeah nice to nice x to see it presented that x way and to go along with what Steve said x um that's why God created the nation of x Israel you know they were supposed to x represent be Witnesses of God to the x rest of the Nations and this is part of x what we'll be picking up next week uh in x the classes uh a little bit of where Ben x is and we're going to continue on that x so you know before Jesus there was x Israel and we know they also failed uh x to represent God on the earth so just a x little side note yeah thanks x Mark good segue into your classes next x week um yeah so this this process is is x underway in us the process that worked x in in Jesus um putting on the new self x uh on screen there Colossians x 39-10 um Paul is saying that basically x this status that we have now it's x supposed to affect our Behavior x presently right we're not supposed to be x lying to one another anymore because we x put off the old self old self was a liar x you know the the new self does not lie x it tells the truth um you you put off x the old self with its practices you put x on the new self which is being renewed x in knowledge after the image of its x creator um so I I wonder here when it x you know after the image of its creator x well what's Creator it's Creator what x are we talking about um x sorry I gota catch up to my notes x here so what is the it in its creator x it's the new self so the new self has a x Creator the old self um is is passing x away we're putting on the new self you x know I I wonder if you know it's Jesus x himself that is the the new creator of x of the new creation when it it says by x in the Colossians chapter 1 what we just x looked at it says by him all things were x created so it's saying that Jesus is has x a role in creation Now we reject the x idea that there was a pre-existent x Christ or anything like that back in the x Genesis 1 period that helped god with x the original x creation now we're thinking in spiritual x terms about this new creative work that x that God is doing through x Christ and Jesus appears to have a role x in that in creating the new putting on x the new x self um it it's just a thought here but x you have to ask who is the creator what x did God I'm sorry what did Jesus create x Colossians x 1:15 x um regardless what we're talking about x is you know to get back to the image and x likeness thing we're not talking about x physical representations of God we're x not even talking about the divine nature x um we're talking about really practical x relatable things that Jesus teaches us x to do x um if we're in Colossians 3 looking at x how we are being renewed in knowledge x after the image of its x creator he keep saying put x on be renewed here are the things we're x supposed to put on in just a few verses x later Colossians 3:12 to14 he says put x on compassionate Hearts put on kindness x put on humility makeness patience x bearing with one another forgiving each x other even as Christ forgave you and x above o all these things put on love x which binds everything together in x Perfect x Harmony and I think sometimes our x expectation is that you know we're going x to have some kind of experience like x Moses on Mount Si or Ezekiel having The x Vision by the the canal it's going to be x this otherworldly thing this thing x totally outside of Human x Experience um but really image bearing x is about doing these kind of ordinary x things that are actually extraordinary x which are actually very rare in the x world x um like having compassionate Hearts x being kind being humble these are not x things that come natural and for that x reason they are x extraordinary um I think we x should be think looking at these sorts x of characteristics that God has revealed x to us through Jesus and say wow that's x amazing for you know and we do see that x in our community uh we have wonderful x brothers and sisters sisters I can think x of so many folks who have influenced x myself and sister Hannah I'm sure you x can as well for yourself just really x extraordinary examples of of disciples x who have influenced us and shown us uh x the glory of God in the face of Jesus x Christ as it's been imprinted onto them x um so um you know Philip when he says x you know just show us the father Jesus x like that's what I've been doing it's x what do you expect to see um x you we we think of these awesome moments x like the x Transfiguration where you know God x Reveals His glory in a way that's really x striking to human beings but uh that's x that's not what it's all about really x um so hopefully that makes x sense so Colossians is is a great place x to go for this um it's really tragic x that you know some people go in x different directions with a passage like x this um but I think as we do the the x Imaging study we can kind of see there x is sort of a higher spiritual meaning to x these things um the whole concept of the x new creation is it it really is supposed x to be a radical thing x um yeah so any any questions on x Colossians 1 any comments on these x passages before we move x on all x right let's see so the next one is is x Philippians chapter x 2 this is another one that's kind of x hard to read without reacting to the x misunderstanding um you know we're not x going to be refuting the pre-existence x or deity of Christ or anything like that x that's that's not what we're here to x talk about um but I do want to focus in x on this this bit about Jesus who was in x the form of God he did not count x equality with God a thing to be x grasped but himself by taking the form x of a servant x um I couldn't find any basis for the x esvs being born I think King James he x was made in the likeness of man is fine x uh maybe that reference to how he was x born maybe not being found in human form x he humbled himself by becoming obedient x to the point of death even death on a x cross therefore God has highly exalted x him and bestowed on him the name that is x above every x name it's the name that you just talked x about that all it has dominion over the x Earth essentially um this is another x passage that seems to be directly x referencing the Genesis account right x equality with God a thing to be x grasped does seem to suggest Eve x grasping for the for forbidden fruit x that would give them the knowledge of x Good and Evil just as the Elohim had x right um and they say you know you know x the man is going to become like one of x us x right x um so so grasping for equality um does x seem to be a reference to to Adam and x Eve's x Behavior x Uh so think about the things that that x the devil promised to Jesus in the x wilderness he said you know you can have x all the kingdoms of the earth and and go x and Jesus might have said well hey I'm x God son you know I should I'm entitled x to these things I should reach out and x take them um that would be seeking to x have equality with god um I I think Eve x could have also rationalized hey God God x Made Me In His Image God wants me to x have this knowledge of of of Good and x Evil you know you can e easily justify x that in your mind um but unlike Adam and x Eve Jesus acknowledged the likeness of x men in which he was born and it was only x by being the representative of mankind x being found in human x form that he could humble himself by x being obedient to the point of death uh x so that God could exalt him in due time x um he he was ultimately exalted but the x exaltation came from God it was not x something that he grasped for himself x that makes sense brother x Chris his baptism uh at which point he x received the power of God without x measure uh and so he wasn't born with x this nature of uh being in the in the x form of God this is something that took x place during his life following his x baptism and of course it came with the x great temptation to use this power to x serve self which he dealt with in the x wilderness so uh I think that helps get x an idea where this grasping would have x taken place you know at age 30 not not x at his birth as a x child okay yeah that's that's x helpful any other x comments just got a few more minutes x here so I think we'll x do one x more um Romans chapter x 8 uh For Those whom he fornew he also x predestined to be conformed to the image x of his son in order that he might be the x firstborn among many brothers Those whom x he predestined he also called and Those x whom he called he also Justified Those x whom he justified he also x glorified so being conformed to the x image of God's x son and x glorification both of those things both x of those end results come from a process x that begins with God's forn knowledge x right he he for knows to be conformed to x the image he forn knows that he may x um you know pre predestin and call and x justify and ultimately glorify his x people so I think this passage is is x connecting confirmation to the image of x Jesus right who's the perfect image of x the x father that's connecting that to to x glorification um so this is definitely x something that we're we're working x towards it's not we're not quite there x yet but I do see this as again going x back to the the Lego tool right Jesus is x the first one he's the firstborn among x many brothers and so you know all of x these parts that were made in the same x image come x afterwards x um so yeah so Romans 8 is definitely x picking up on the on the same idea x here need to go through all x this x uh okay so to put it quite simply Jesus x is the express image of God he's the x pattern to follow um I've just put a x collection of verses here which show x that we are supposed to behave as Christ x did to walk as he walked to do as he did x to love as Christ loved to forgive as x the Lord has forgiven us to have the x mind just as Christ x did um for to this you have been called x because Christ also suffered for you x leaving you an example so that you may x follow in his x steps so um yeah there's there's a lot x of learned from this the study um it x hasn't always been easygoing But x ultimately God had a vision for his x creation right from the very beginning x he had a vision for what he wanted to do x with humankind that he wanted them to x bear his image and likeness and um like x brother Steve was saying I think this x was the idea here was for the whole x calling for man to be fruitful and x multiply the Earth was to propagate the x image of God throughout all of creation x um so that Moses doesn't have to go into x the mountain and ask for God ask to see x God instead we can see God in the image x of Jesus Christ and hopefully those of x us who are being formed in that image x can represent the image of God to others x as well right so so you don't have to go x to this remote place to to experience x God's presence you can experience the x presence of God when you're with the the x children of God who are bearing His x Image just the way that remember how x Seth is said to have be have borne x Adam's image in x likeness x um so God is still working in creation x um um there that whole concept of God is x as the clock maker maker having wound up x creation and he just lets it x go I don't think that's quite accurate x when you see the work that Jesus is x doing as the firstborn of the new x creation um continuing to work x transformation in the lives of Believers x we do have x to I would say be convinced that God is x is presently working in our lives in our x community in our ecclesias with our x young people um in ourselves personally x uh if we lose that sense of God's x involvement um I I think that's that x would be disastrous but but we we should x see ourselves as bearing God's image to x some extent and trying to progressively x work to Bear it just as Jesus did um x we're not going to get there perfectly x in this life but that's that's the x standard that we are to follow uh Jesus x is the pattern so any comments or x questions before we wrap x yes oh Mike's x coming um you say it's like the plan x from the beginning but if man had not x sinned and eaten of that tree would x there have been a need for Christ or is x that a totally separate x there would be no need for him to save x us yeah no that's that's you know what I x well that's not what happened I I can't x really speculate about alternate x scenarios but you know I I think that x this it's it's part of the creation x process God does tell us what exactly x what happened on days 1- six right we x have the Genesis one and two x accounts but the the exact details of x how it's happening were spared those we x have a lot more detail about what God is x working uh in humankind and how he has x developed man to bear his image and x likeness because it's been a process x that's taken thousands and thousands of x years to get where we are and it's taken x Jesus Christ to to do that so in some x ways we have so much more detail about x the creative process of human beings I'm x not saying that we're in day six right x now but you know God is continuing to x work and I would say that the creation x some ways is still x unfolding yeah does that help at all x then you know speak that I think we have x evidence to Judy's question in the x creation account and there are subtle x things that uh if we look at are showing x us this that Jesus by no means was an x accident or a second thought or a x corrective action uh but it was right x from the very very beginning and so such x things as the evening and the morning x were the first day is showing us that x God knew that Darkness would first come x that man would reflect this in darkness x before the light would come okay and x that the source of this light the Sun x the moon the stars does not appear until x the fourth day uh which uh the creation x account is kind of broken into two x three-day parallel accounts uh first a x doc manifestation and then the True x Light will come so light out of darkness x is a principle of God but that Darkness x would Prevail first and and that was the x need so it's to the honor praise and x glory of God that he provided his only x begotten son because he so loved us x nothing to do with us okay but to Judy's x point you know we we certainly want to x say we can clearly see in the six day x account it was not an accident God forew x this he planned it and uh you know so x the question sometimes goes to Adam's x worth x sin not that he simply sin but that he x wouldn't take responsibility for the sin x was a process that he had to come to x acknowledge you know he first blamed so x God knew that man that this Darkness was x Laten in man and would have to come out x for us so it was you know shown to us x that it was not an afterthought or Jesus x came to correct something that God x didn't plan that he knew it was going to x happen yeah thanks for that Chris