Forgiveness and Reconciliation

Transcript

and brother brian's prayer forgiveness x and x and reconciliation x um x no x you stuck x oh here we go x and it's an important subject x forgiveness and reconciliation is x crucial to our spiritual well-being x and the spiritual well-being x of others x uh there's two aspects that i've uh x considered x first is um x just x i'm gonna try to get rid of some of this x on the x okay x versus x forgiveness is required x for salvation this is the first aspect x um x god's forgiveness from sin and our x ultimate reconciliation x by his his grace x and the second is forgiveness we offer x to one another that hopefully leads to x reconciliation x and ultimately x our salvation x so this forgiveness is required for x positive productive x fellowship x both x result in reconciliation x without forgiveness there can be no x reconciliation x and x we will be examining forgiveness x required for positive productive x fellowship x and briefly compare x our father's forgiveness x to the fellowship to the forgiveness x that we offer x the character of god's forgiveness is x totally different x than the forgiveness of mankind and why x is that we see in exodus 34 6-7 x and he passed in front of moses x proclaiming the lord the lord the x gracious god x slow to anger abounding in love and x faithfulness forgiving wickedness x rebellion and sin x yet he does not leave the guilty x unpunished so we can see all the x attributes and characteristics of of our x heavenly father here and how that could x be x play into x forgiveness x god's mercy and forgiveness is freely x given x he is compassionate x making the way open so we can be x reconciled to him x and have fellowship with him x his son x and with one another x so x just consider these x two verses here psalm 85 86 verse 5 x for you lord are good and ready to x forgive an abundant mercy to all those x who call upon him x we can't always say that about ourselves x sometimes we have x limitations and and and barriers that x prevent that x and x this one from ephesians 2 4 and 5. x but x but because of his great love for us god x who is rich in mercy has made us alive x with christ even when we were dead x in transgressions x it is by grace that you have x been saved x so god's forgiveness is based on his x gracious x long-suffering x opening the way x to reconciliation x [Music] x and one of the beautiful things is that x god x forgives x completely x there is no x barriers x for us forgiving is one of the most x difficult things x to accomplish x it is difficult to forget when we have x been portrayed x or deeply hurt we feel justified not x forgiving someone this develops x bitterness which gnaws away inside of us x if we don't truly forgive x then resentment festers in our hearts x causing x anger x in colossians uh paul reminds us of x god's standard of forgiveness colossians x 3 12 13. x since god chose you to be the holy x people he loves x you must clothe yourselves with tender x heart of mercy x kindness humility gentleness and x patience x make allowance for each other's faults x and forgive anyone who offends you x remember the lord forgave you so you x must forgive others so we see a very x good picture here of of god's standard x and some of the stumbling blocks that we x may encounter x and are in our attempt to forgive in x 13 x so x what is man's basis for forgiveness x man must be prompted to forgive others x man's act of forgiveness is motivated by x the threat of judgment x and we have this verse matthew 6 15 x but if you refuse to forgive others your x father will not x forgive you your sins and so there's a x there's a hint of a threat there x that uh we may we may not be forgiven x and we may be be judged because of it x so we do not freely forgive we think in x terms of forgiveness only after there is x being an apology x it is justification and then forgiveness x this is the opposite to what is required x of us x what impact does a negative approach x have on us x so we have a negative approach in x first john 2 and 11 x but anyone who hates another brother or x sister x is still living and walking in darkness x such a person does not know the way to x go x having been blinded x by the darkness x so what's the meaning of being blinded x by the darkness x of course it means a loss of sight x but it's also used x as a x as a metaphor in the new testament and x that x this phrase is x means x to dull mental discernment x to darken the mind x or a loss of x sensitivity and all of these things x would be a barrier x for us to x activate positive x forgiveness and possibly a x reconciliation x [Music] x so it's it suggests not forgiving can x have a physical and emotional effect on x us x so it's you know the idea is it's x letting it go you know open yourself up x to wanting to forgive and to reconcile x the ability to forgive is a powerful x tool for personal x transformation x true forgiveness erases negative x influence in our hearts x and we do ourselves a huge favor x when we truly let go and forgive x there is an extremely high return of x peace and joy in our lives when we x absolutely forgive those x who have hurt us x so we can conclude from that that x forgiving x is healing x and often the people whom we have not x forgiven x are unaware of the offense and don't x even know they need to be x forgiven x and x when we're in this situation this x depletes our spiritual energy x causing us x mental x and emotional distress x so here are people that don't even know x they need to be forgiven and we're we're x all out of joint because we're not doing x the proper thing x our wealth our well-being is at risk x when we do not x forgive x now scripture is very definite about the x necessity for forgiveness x in fact it was a serious topic of x discussion x between jesus x and his x disciples x so what is jesus's standard of x forgiveness x we're going to just look at this x we have to look at this briefly but i x think there's a few interesting points x here x matthew 18 14 and 15 you're all x everybody's familiar with matthew 18. x uh x in verse 14 it says it is not the will x of your father in heaven x that one of these x little ones should perish so x the father is always as concerned for us x and that that x we remain strong and encouraging x to one another x and then in verse 15 it says if another x believer sins against you x go privately and point out the offense x if the other person listens and x confesses it you have won that person x back x so after this very blunt conversation x regarding the resolving of differences x between brethren x peter emphasizes that there is even a x better way x through such difficulties and we see in x matthew 18 21-22 x peter says x he came to jesus and asked lord how many x times shall i forgive my brother or x sister who sins against me x up seven times x and what was jesus's reply i tell you x not even seven times but 77 x times seven times seven times x this is a a statement that's always x intrigued me x uh this uh x this calculation of 77 times x and i'm going to give you my thoughts on x it but it might be a point of discussion x at the end x if anybody has a different id on it x no doubt peter thought he was setting a x very high standard of forgiveness x how did peter come up with the number x seven x [Music] x it may have been based on rabbinic x teaching x they were in the habit of quoting x from x amos uh one and three this is what the x lord says x because damascus has committed three x crimes make that four x i will not revoke my decree x of judgment x the rabbi's interpretation was if a man x commits an offense once they forgive him x if he commits an offense a second time x they forgive him if he commits an x offense the third time they forgive him x but the fourth time they do not forgive x for this they inferred x that the forgiving three offenses was as x much as could be reasonably expended x extended x to a x repeat offender x peter went far beyond that by adding the x three and the four x together making seven times x no doubt peter expected to be warmly x commended but jesus demanded an even x higher standard x than it came to forgiveness jesus answer x was that the disciples must forgive 70 x times seven x jesus was insisting that every possible x opportunity be explored in seeking to x heighten forgiveness otherwise we have x the potential of setting ourselves up to x be judges of others x how did jesus arrive at this level at x his level of forgiveness x well we turn to uh x genesis 4 x verses 19 22 24. x uh x this is sort of a paraphrase x lennox second wife was zillow x and zilla bear dubocaine x an instructor of every craft in brass x and hot and and iron x [Music] x when lennox son tubal kane developed x extensive skills in fashioning brass and x iron x to be used in the manufacture of tools x and weapons x limit bragged about this advancement x with this taunting x lament x limit said to his wives listen to what i x say x i have killed a man for wounding me x and a young man for striking me x if kane's revenge is sevenfold then x lennox is seven x seventy 77 x polled x because vengeance has been exacted x seventh time on cain's behalf x on lemic's behalf it shall be seven x times seven limits boast was x greater than god who pronounced a mere x seven-fold judgment against anyone who x sought vengeance x on kane x we see this in uh genesis 4 15 and then x the lord said to him not so if anyone x kills cain x vengeance shall be taken x on him sevenfold but the lord put a mark x on cainless any man who found him should x attack him x so this is where lennock is x boasting that he can exceed this x if kane were killed seven deaths would x be x exacted in retaliation x but x in atlantic uh case x he said is that keynes revenge is seven x fold and linux is is seven x times sevenfold x let boasted that 70 times seven deaths x would be the penalty of revenge x if we were x if he were slain x so what can we learn from lemmick's x attitude x islamic is not only boastful he now ends x the sin of revenge x boasting leads away from forgiveness x and promotes revenge x and out of lenox formula of 70 times 7 x comes unlimited x revenge x the 70 times 7 is the exact phrase used x by jesus x jesus offers us a formula for unlimited x forgiveness x with no evidence with no x revenge at all x why do you think x that jesus x set this high standard of forgiveness x oh scary i'm i missed a spider so x let me glory in his power to take x vengeance the lord's disciple is to x glory in the extended x extending of forgiveness to the x positively highest level x while jesus's formula to forgive may x appear to be unattainable x it is very comforting for if jesus lays x down such a standard for the disciples x to follow x will he not extend the same quality x of forgiveness x to us x and they'd like but then that's a very x comforting thing to think about that you x know x our forgiveness can be x um without limit x so x why do we think that jesus had set such x a high x standard x we can forgive but we do not always x forget so whatever so whatever needs to x be forgiven x is always lurking x in the back x of our minds x it is not a matter of calculation but x rather a matter x of choice x it is essentially wrong to count the x times of forgiveness x for encounting x we are remembering x and not x forgetting x so we must adopt the opposition is of x that i choose to forgive x forget about how many times x just make the choice x to forgive those x who offend us or sin against us x so under what circumstances is x forgiveness required x from luke x uh 17 verses 3 and 4 says take heed to x yourselves x if your brother sinned against you x rebuke him x and if he repents forgive him x and if he sins against you x seven times in the day x and seven times in the day returns to x you saying i repent x he shall x forgive him x and so the message here is if he repents x we have to forgive x and we have all been affected by someone x else's thoughtless actions unkind words x or being put down by someone's x indifference x if he repents we have to forgive x and when you forgive x in no way x can change the past x but you sure do change x the future x how does x forgiving affect the future x while x it restores relationships x when we x when we go forward with a clean slate x we can build on the relationship and on x reconciliation x and for a few minutes i'd like to x compare this to the parable of the x prodigal son x uh x it should be called actually the parable x of the loving father x the father must have been waiting and x watching for the son to come home x for he saw him a long way off and when x he came x he forgave him with no recriminations x this is a portrait of our heavenly x father x whose love and forgiveness and x compassion x have no limits x well what was the son's reply x the son said to him father i have sinned x against heaven and against you x and i am no longer worthy to be called x your son x the sun's attitude had now become x acceptable x demonstrating x penance contriteness x and true x repentance x and you know as we've just seen if x someone repents x we must forgive x and when you think about this x we're all prodigal sons and daughters to x some degree x and in need of our father's loving x embrace x and x forgiveness and i thought of this psalm x about who can stand x psalm 133 and 4 x if you lord kept a record of sins lord x who could stand x and so how do we x how can we be forgiven of our sins x of course we know that we're dependent x upon x divine mercy x but with you there is forgiveness x so that we can with reverence x serve you x so x through god's mercy we see this x reconciliation x that can take place x and we're in a position to serve again x and this same principle can apply to the x relationships that that we share x one with another x and you might add that it is only the x only path forward that is available x to us the interaction between the father x and the son have all the elements of x forgiveness and reconciliation x it tells us much about the forgiveness x of god x the father the father was waiting and x watching for the son to come home x and when he came he was eager x to forgive x and it's a very x warm x wonderful x picture to x to place in our minds the father waiting x and watching x for us to come home x and he's eager to forgive x forgiveness must be absolute there can x be no reminder for reliving the act that x precipitated the need for forgiveness x remember god forgives completely x and this is our standard x this is the example we have been given x and the standard by which we should x forgive and create x positive x relationships x forgiveness creates x reconciliation x and in the in this parable we see x repentance the repentance of the son x the absolute forgiveness of the father x which leads to reconciliation x the father displays the perfect formula x for building x a relationship x and the father's response shows to x true forgiveness x he is open x and welcoming x and so it's all about x relationships x relationships with one another require x a commitment to forgiveness x and jesus provides the standard x through his life he was subject to x prejudice violent persecution x and eventually murder x however he was faithful to his father's x example of forgiveness x and even as he was nailed to the cross x he prayed father x forgive them x for they know not x what they do x so x there's one x element here that's left out and that is x the elder sun x the older sun in the parable depicts the x opposite of god's standard x of forgiveness x and reconciliation x we read about heaven in the 15th chapter x of luke 25 to verse 30. x the older son was in the field and he x came near the house and he heard x music and dancing x and he called one of the servants and x asked what's going on x and hit the answer was your father has x come and your x your brother has come x and he replied x and your father has killed the fattened x calf because he was back x safe and sound x the older brother became angry and x refused to go in x so his father went out and pleaded with x him x but he answered his father x look x all these years i've been saved slaving x for you x and you never just never disobeyed your x orders x you have never given me a young goat so x i could celebrate with my friends x but when the son of yours has x squandered your property with x prostitutes and comes home x you kill the father calf x for him x so x this is uh x a suggestion x and x you may x you may x agree with it and you may not and it x would be worth some discussion if you x don't x but x who doesn't the elder brother represent x in in this story x does it represent individual brothers x and sisters x does it x represent the ecclesia x as a whole x the elder brother he has all the x characteristics x that are not forgiving x and i just like to review these x characters what are these what are these x characteristics x there is a refusal to welcome his x brother back x the elder brother was actually sorry x that his brother had come home x his attitude was x one of a lack of sympathy x he refers to the prodigal not as my x brother but as your son x and there is no brotherly bond x he represents the self-righteousness of x a person who would rather see a sinner x lost than saved x he should have he should have known x better x his attitude shows that his years of x obedience x to his father has been years of grim x duty x and not loving service x he has become x hard-hearted x and he had a particularly nasty mind x there is no mention of prostitutes x until he x mentions them x jesus leaves this parable incomplete x it is designed to make us think about x our own x relationships and who we need to x forgive x and how we can activate x that forgiveness x it's all about relationships x that's my place here x did the older brother have a change of x heart and join the happy x fellowship of father brother and all the x household x or did he persist in his x self-righteous aloofness x and thus by his unforgiving spirit x create a worst rift in the household x at the time when the bond should have x been even stronger than ever x the bond should have been strong with x the father the son and with one another x it's something x to think about x this x you know if if it is representative of x of the community x it is something that we need to x consider x quite seriously x so there's something lacking in the in x the elder brother x and i think it's this x to forgive others not because they x deserve forgiveness but because you x deserve peace x and x this is what is sort of crucial for all x of us because if we refuse to x to forgive x we won't have peace we won't have peace x of mind we won't have peace of comfort x we'll always be x in turmoil and always second-guessing x the person we need x to forgive x jesus taught vividly that anger between x brethren had to be resolved before one x could be reconciled x with god x we take this from matthew 5 x 23-24 x therefore if you are offering your gift x at the altar x and there remember that your brother or x sister has something against you x leave your gift there in front of the x altar x first go and be reconciled to them and x then come x and offer x your gift x sacrifice of prayer x is ineffective while animosity exists x between x brethren x if christ died that men and women might x be reconciled to god x we are obligated to continue that work x and we do injury to the redemptive x process x when we in anger refuse to be reconciled x to a brother or sister x an attitude such as this negates our x fellowship at the table x and our service to god can x can be compared to our sacrifice x in the temple x we cannot be reconciled to god if we do x not reconcile to our brothers x and sisters x it is a barrier to being reconciled to x our heavenly father x we have this verse in proverbs 13 and 10 x where there is strife there is pride x but wisdom is found in those who take x advice x and this is the model x for reconciliation and of course it's x found in matthew x 18. we're just going to spend a couple x minutes on this but x if another x believer sins against you go privately x and point out the offense and if the x other person listens and confesses x it you have won x that person back x now x i used a different version here but uh x in another version the key word is alone x you go to the person alone x uh x face to face x there's no letters there's no emails x and you do not solicit input at this x point or listen x to gossip x and here are some x practical x suggestions x to x implement reconciliation x prayer x patience x understanding x and long suffering x these are all things that help us to x work through the difficulties x of reconciliation x and they help us to achieve the goal to x be reconciled x with your brother x or your sister x sometimes this doesn't x work and we know that x and so we go to matthew 18 16. x but if you are unsuccessful take one or x two others with you and go back again x so that everything you say may be x confirmed x by two or three x witnesses x what would this verse x the instructions of this verse x accomplish x if agreement cannot be reached involving x a wise and calm brother or sister x could help to facilitate x reconciliation x and the presence of others may create a x positive spirit x in the discussion x you know we hopefully when we enter into x these things we're on our best behavior x and we're not going to be bringing up x past hurts but try to focus on something x that is x meaningful and productive and a path x forward x so x we go to matthew 17 x if a person still refuses to listen x you're you take the case to the ecclesia x then if he or she won't accept the x eclipse decision x treat that person as a pagan x or a corrupt x tax corrector collector x this is not good x and it's not pleasant x how do we prevent the involvement of the x ecclesia x well the first thing would be x the way to prevent this unpleasant x circumstance prescribed in this verse is x to strongly allow x follow the advice x in 15 and 16 so we don't have to go to x 17. x the first impression in verse 17 is that x the person must be abandoned as hopeless x and unrepentant x this does not sound like jesus x you have to remember that he set no x limits on forgiveness x remember jesus is teaching x his disciples x the lord's disciples to extend the x forgiveness to a positively unreasonable x level x it's the 70 times 7 x principle x he never abandons anyone x think about peter x and judas x it does not necessarily refer to this x fellowship x it may represent an attitude of x scriptural rebuke x that hopefully guides a brother or x sister x to reconciliation x what then did jesus mean x and he may have meant something like x this x when you have given the sinner every x chance and they remain stubborn and x unrepentant x you may think that they are no better x than a renegade tax collector or even a x godless gentile x well you may be right x but i have not found them hopeless x my experience with them is that they can x be reconciled x and converted x with patience and love x and you can accomplish the same x and there's a couple of scriptures that x i would just touch on briefly that help x us in this area 2nd thessalonians 3 13 x 13-15 x [Music] x but as for you brethren do not grow x weary in doing good x and if anyone does not obey your word in x this epistle note that person x and do not keep company with him that he x may be ashamed x yet do not count him as an enemy x but admonish him as a brother x and a sister x and so there are still x the x family x relationship that has to be maintained x nurtured x encouraged x and built on x and then in james 5 and 20 says let him x let him know that he who turns x a sinner x that's the same as x reconciled x from the error of his ways x shall save a soul from death and shall x hide a multitude x of sins x and so x there is x opportunities x to not go the full length x of the recommendations in x 18 and 17. of course there are party x occasions when x there would be a disassociation but the x idea is try again x and try again x this is not an injunction to abandon a x person it is a challenge to forgive and x reconcile them with love x and compassion x it is not a statement that some people x are hopeless x it is a statement that jesus christ x has found no one hopeless and neither x must we x well i got i was done quicker than i x thought so i'll just close with this x this thought for your consideration x for if you forgive men when they sin x against you your heavenly father will x also forgive you but if you do not x forgive men their sins x your heavenly father will not forgive x your sins x so it's it's something that x should encourage us to build x forgiveness and reconciliation into our x our lives x thank you x thank you david that was that's an x important message and uh x i thought you presented it well x and i like your slides x you can put more information into a talk x if you can x zip through them yeah x i have a question x hi x yeah hi richard go ahead x um where it says um x the steps that the brother doesn't hear x you or whoever it x may maybe x uh you need to get x two witnesses x and then if you don't hear them take it x to the uh clevia x because we know under the law it says x that x you x have to have two or more witnesses and x uh then he says take it to the uh uh to x the occlusion and if he doesn't hear the x athleisure treat him as a tax collector x i remember picking up a magazine x uh the uh i forget the name of it it's x uh x it was written by the ecclesia x and the brother said that uh x it was the the understanding of that x wasn't uh x understood right in other words because x peter had uh the x pharisees them said this man is with tax x collectors and sinners x and jesus said that's who i came to save x and so when it says take him to the x ecclesia x he doesn't hear them x treat him as a text collector x or whatever and x so x jesus said he come to save those x same citizens x that's an interesting turn on the idea x yeah x yeah i think that's also i do think x that's interesting richard it's almost x like uh it's time to start all over x right x yeah thanks for that x yeah x um x so david there are times when there are x certain sins that have significant x consequences x um x you know sins against children for x example or uh x you know embezzlement things like that x um x you know x how x what advice would you give regarding x forgiveness x and protection you know against repeated x uh x sins or you know uh you we might forgive x somebody but if somebody has a x uh x you know if somebody x struggles with a certain sin i mean how x do you protect while still forgiving any x thoughts on that x well x first of all x you look for x um x repentance x you work on rehabilitation x but if you know you mentioned like sins x against children like x i mean you'd have to have some very x strong barriers to put in place that a x person like that x never has an opportunity to interact x with children say x they're just that would just be out of x the question x i think i remember somebody drawing x distinction between you know the x forgiveness of sins and and the x consequences that there's a difference x between the the sin and the consequence x and we can x we can forgive the sinner but the x consequence remains yeah and that might x be that you know hey the embezzler is x not going to be the treasurer of the x inclusion x right x um x i think you have to just you have to x just x i think you have to discern too when it x comes to forgiveness at least this is x what i think x if it's a sin against you x you can forgive that x yeah but if it's not against you x that's in the head that's in the hands x of the lord x you know some people like you know x somebody does something x say somebody commits x adultery in the occlusion x yeah i've heard people say well we x should forgive him well he didn't commit x adultery against me x he should be x it's his wife that needs to or vice x versa needs to do the forgiving x and then it's taken to the to x to god x but so x i don't know whether you would agree x with that or not but i think i think you x have to make a distinction between x who the sin is committed against x hmm x okay x any other thoughts x anybody else x what about uh linda hi linda hello x dave knows me don't you dave oh linda x how are you x i'm fine thank you we work together a x long time so we know one another going x back a long way but i thought your class x was excellent and very helpful thank you x i've got can i make a couple of comments x one is on your comment brother steve x that you were just talking about x um x because some of those x things that you were referring to are x actually crimes in the sight of the law x not just x you know he stepped on my toe and i'm x mad at him kind of a thing x that's a that's a good point linda yeah x and in x in first corinthians chapter five x um x [Music] x it's uh x and well i don't know what i don't know x where to start well it's i guess i'd x have to start at the beginning of the x chapter um it's reported commonly that x there is fornication among use and such x fornication as is not so much as named x among the gentiles that one should have x his father's wife x so and apparently that was against roman x law x that's a crime in other words it was a x crime against the law x and in verse 5 x it says to deliver such a one unto satan x for the destruction of the flesh that x the spirit may be saved in the day of x the lord jesus x and x i heard this these are never original x thoughts with me x one things i've got written in my margin x from other people x um x [Music] x the brother was not to be protected by x the ecclesia but delivered to the x authorities which is deliver him to x satan x the authorities to appreciate the error x of his way in other words they would x throw the book of the law at him x and he would then realize the x the seriousness of the crime x and x and repent x and see our own thing x and receive forgiveness from god x ultimately x so oftentimes we'll look at that verse x and we think of turning them over to x satan is just simply x casting them out of the occlusion to the x into the world but i think that what x you're suggesting is that this satan x here x and throughout much of the new testament x you can actually identify it as the x roman authorities x right and so it's saying you know if x he's committed a crime let the legal x authorities handle it is that what x you're saying yes yeah it makes a lot of x sense to me and that x verse x seems to me to say that you know because x we x cannot protect people x they clearly protect people who are x committing crimes otherwise we're x getting we can forgive them x but they still have to deal with the x consequences and those consequences x maybe x um x you know ended out by the by satan by x the authorities yeah is this linda yeah x yeah hi jim x hello there anyway x the other point that brother david made x that i thought was excellent x you had a little slider probably not x quoting it exactly but said x we don't forgive because the person x needs forgiveness but because we need x peace x peace was it yes x yeah and x where you were in matthew 18 at the end x of that chapter there's that x parable of the unmerciful servant who x has been forgiven debt himself and then x he won't forgive the debts x of others x and at the end of that it says and his x lord was rough and delivered him to the x tormentors x till he should pay all that was due unto x him x and i just think your comment about we x need peace x if we don't forgive people x we are tormented by that person you made x another x comment which i totally agreed with the x beginning of more to the beginning of x your class where the person who needs x the forgiveness can be going merrily on x their way x oblivious oblivious yes to the fact that x you won't forgive them x but you're being tormented x every time you see that person you're x being tormented in your mind da da da da x he did this to me you know whatever i'm x mad at him x and that verse seems to suggest x deliver him to the tormentors x we're the ones that get tormented by our x lack of forgiveness don't we x anyway i thought that was an excellent x point x you're on your point about x not x protecting um x the ecclesia protecting people x i'll give you a personal experience i x was involved in some committee work at x one time x and x there was x a a person that was con x i wasn't accused it was a proven fact x that they were a pedophile x and this person wanted to x start a virtual sunday school x and i said no way x and and and a couple other people there x said well we have to forgive them x i said no x when you do something like that x you can't you can't x give him an opportunity to jeopardize x another child x so i agree with that what you said about x that about you know the theoclesia x should not protect people like that x yeah dave if i could just pick up on on x that point because i think it's a very x solid point x um we we've all x seen or heard or whatever within our x community at times x where for the sake of the the truth we x tend to throw out common sense x you know the idea that you don't give a x pedophile opportunity x is just common sense you know and yet x we'll say well you've got to forgive x them it's like it's like somebody who x has an abusive husband and you say well x you know you married him so so tough x luck you know we jesus never throws x common sense out the window x uh x for the sake of truth and i think that's x a mistake that we can we can definitely x make whereas if we look at it with a x point of wisdom uh we can find the x logical ground to be able to forgive and x at the same time not set people up set x the situation up for that person to hurt x more people x good point x so david could you elaborate i know x we're running up uh on 8 30 but can can x you just elaborate a little bit on um x your comment earlier on about those who x um x i don't want to put words in your mouth x but it was almost as though x we sometimes want to wait for the person x to come x acknowledge their sin ask us to be x forgiven and then we can forgive x but jesus standard i think you showed x was higher than that do i understand x that right x i'm not sure i'm following you x okay x let me see if i can word it another way x um x i would suggest that there are times in x my life or maybe in other people's lives x where i'm hesitant to forgive somebody x because they haven't quote unquote x earned my forgiveness they never asked x me to forgive them x and um x i sense that x that's a different standard than the one x that jesus x exhibits in his life jesus x yeah yeah i get to know x because well because x we x like i was i think i said in that part x was that x first of all x we generally forgive because we're we're x in threat of judgment x and we want to you know we want to avoid x that so it's partly not that x the forgiveness is not sincere x we're just protecting ourselves x and x okay x and then the other x what was the last point that you made x and sort of lost my three and a thought x well it was just that you know jesus x looks out at the crowd and says you know x father forgive them x you know they know not what they do and x it's nobody in the crowd was saying will x you forgive me right jesus has a x different standard of forgiveness yeah x and i think you brought up a passage in x luke you know if someone asks you to x forgive them you know someone repents x then you forgive yeah x right and i think that there's almost x like you can view it in two different x standards while they are x i think what i said was is that x we look for an apology x yeah yeah yeah and and then and then um x and that's our justification x to forgive x and that was not jesus's standard you x know his standard was x that you know x we forgive we forgive under any x circumstances we shouldn't even need to x be we need to be prompted to forgive we x should we should x want to automatically x do that x doesn't mean it doesn't mean that it's x easy no x hey you're right x you what we're at 8 30. i'd like to uh x i'd like to close with prayer but then x maybe we can continue for those that are x able to hang on we can continue x uh our discussion