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you should have received a sheet of paper that's got paper that's got print on both sides it's talking about print on both sides it's talking about what truth is what truth is and characteristics of god's truth and characteristics of god's truth i wrote that oh a number of years ago i wrote that oh a number of years ago and i found that and i found that over the years it's largely remained over the years it's largely remained true true that is that is the information on it i would still the information on it i would still largely agree with largely agree with because sometimes when you write matters because sometimes when you write matters down you down you change your mind change your mind but but point number seven on the side entitled point number seven on the side entitled some fundamental aspects of god's truth some fundamental aspects of god's truth point seven reads contends point seven reads contends god invites investigation of his book god invites investigation of his book dot dot dot dot dot dot and on the flip side of it and on the flip side of it under what truth is under what truth is under the section consequences under the section consequences point t point t where it says beckons where it says beckons invites investigation invites investigation and adherence and adherence since it fears no shortcomings or since it fears no shortcomings or failures failures now the one side is truth in its pure now the one side is truth in its pure abstract theoretical abstract theoretical form form the other the other god's truth is what we're going to be god's truth is what we're going to be dealing with today dealing with today so those are some background characteristics of god's truth and we'll be dealing with some of truth and we'll be dealing with some of them uh during the week primarily today them uh during the week primarily today however however and that's for you to look at and see if and that's for you to look at and see if you think that that largely rings true just definition-wise so we are on common ground here ground here i'm using truth in the sense that it's a i'm using truth in the sense that it's a short form for god's truth and refers to short form for god's truth and refers to the information and teaching found in the information and teaching found in the bible the bible invites invites means asks attracts and is used in the means asks attracts and is used in the sense of cause for or encourages sense of cause for or encourages the term investigation comes from the term investigation comes from investigate which means to inquire into investigate which means to inquire into to examine thoroughly to examine thoroughly together these three words are saying together these three words are saying that the truth of god as revealed in the that the truth of god as revealed in the bible encourages mankind to examine it bible encourages mankind to examine it thoroughly thoroughly [Music] [Music] why why why investigate god's truth why investigate god's truth essentially because he invites it he's essentially because he invites it he's given us the bible that says come and given us the bible that says come and examine me examine me explore me explore me god invites us to look into his son god invites us to look into his son follow his son invites us to come to follow his son invites us to come to himself and to discover what god is himself and to discover what god is really like really like so each of these three so each of these three the bible the bible jesus jesus god himself god himself these all invite men and women to these all invite men and women to in investigate to to taste in investigate to to taste seek find out that the lord is good and seek find out that the lord is good and has good news to offer has good news to offer and the things i want to address this morning you're talking about this truth you're talking about this truth we're talking about each of these in we're talking about each of these in turn so let's talk about the aspect of the word or the bible the bible fears no investigation because it's divine because it's divine god wrote it it's the word of god and it god wrote it it's the word of god and it will always be shown to be fundamentally will always be shown to be fundamentally correct and right and true correct and right and true now many of you will know that over the now many of you will know that over the years the bible has been criticized for years the bible has been criticized for a number of things they wonder whether a number of things they wonder whether it's accurate or not it's accurate or not and there's lots of examples for example and there's lots of examples for example they they they take luke's gospel and they said they take luke's gospel and they said there's a fellow by the name of lycenius there's a fellow by the name of lycenius there that is called a tech croc and there that is called a tech croc and everybody knows he was a king and it everybody knows he was a king and it shows the bible's wrong shows the bible's wrong and after a while they dig up some and after a while they dig up some evidence to find out that there was such evidence to find out that there was such a guy who was a tetrarch and luke was a guy who was a tetrarch and luke was right after all right after all little details like that which you get little details like that which you get into that finds out that the critics into that finds out that the critics prove to be wrong when enough prove to be wrong when enough information is available information is available there's similar charges against the there's similar charges against the bible for discrepancies bible for discrepancies for example the the names on the cross for example the the names on the cross the title on the cross they look like the title on the cross they look like they contradict each other until you they contradict each other until you read the verse that said that the sign read the verse that said that the sign that father had written was in three that father had written was in three different languages and so as you different languages and so as you interpret those three languages you get interpret those three languages you get a resolution of these apparent a resolution of these apparent discrepancies discrepancies other challenges too that are from the higher critics and are from people who really don't want to believe people who really don't want to believe and every time these challenges have and every time these challenges have been been met and defeated met and defeated or confronted or given some type of or confronted or given some type of support to justify them let me just list support to justify them let me just list a couple of things a couple of things verbal inspiration you know how did that verbal inspiration you know how did that happen what are the mechanics of it well happen what are the mechanics of it well the point is that god breathed the point is that god breathed scripture scripture what about the transcription and what about the transcription and translation of it can we trust it translation of it can we trust it there's lots of mistakes well you there's lots of mistakes well you investigate it and you find out with investigate it and you find out with meticulous care meticulous care scripture was conveyed through the ages scripture was conveyed through the ages as the scribes copied it as the scribes copied it how is it possible that men can foretell how is it possible that men can foretell the future the future well the challenges of the datings of well the challenges of the datings of the books and by the time you the books and by the time you investigate it the answer is it's investigate it the answer is it's because god inspired men to foretell the because god inspired men to foretell the future that's how it's right future that's how it's right about what would happen and about what about what would happen and about what would never happen would never happen still remains true still remains true we live in a world that largely believes we live in a world that largely believes in evolution and chance but when you in evolution and chance but when you investigate the evidence you will find investigate the evidence you will find it is certainly a world of design by a it is certainly a world of design by a creator god creator god some think that the bible is scandalous some think that the bible is scandalous inappropriate stories i mean how could inappropriate stories i mean how could it write such things the thing is it's it write such things the thing is it's writing about human nature that's what writing about human nature that's what human beings can do and be human beings can do and be it points out some inconsequential terms it points out some inconsequential terms i mean why i mean why should paul write about the parchments should paul write about the parchments and his cloaks why should that be and his cloaks why should that be considered inspiration considered inspiration well it's a stamp of veracity well it's a stamp of veracity and then there's those passages in the and then there's those passages in the bible that are absolutely a mystery bible that are absolutely a mystery incomprehensible who could ever incomprehensible who could ever understand that understand that and usually the problem turns out to be and usually the problem turns out to be me you know i can't understand it me you know i can't understand it doesn't mean that it's wrong just doesn't mean that it's wrong just because i can't understand it because i can't understand it so every honest investigation vindicates so every honest investigation vindicates scripture scripture and a point to make in all this is that and a point to make in all this is that the bible the bible doesn't ask us to defend it doesn't ask us to defend it it defends itself it defends itself says come on and read me i challenge you says come on and read me i challenge you to do that to do that because it claims to be nothing less because it claims to be nothing less than the word of god than the word of god and if that's true that's an astounding thing and if it's false it's mighty mighty and if it's false it's mighty mighty presumptuous you can't have a middle presumptuous you can't have a middle ground in this ground in this it gives us 66 books with all these case it gives us 66 books with all these case studies and says check them out for studies and says check them out for consistency accuracy uh does it make consistency accuracy uh does it make sense does it ring true that type of sense does it ring true that type of thing and in every case thing and in every case that a person has honestly gone about that a person has honestly gone about looking looking for the right information i believe for the right information i believe they've been satisfied no one has ever they've been satisfied no one has ever made a case against the authority and made a case against the authority and integrity of the bible integrity of the bible the writing is unique unlike any other the writing is unique unlike any other writing of man writing of man example is to attempt the religious example is to attempt the religious style and style and in in prose of scripture follows in in prose of scripture follows immediately short of what the scriptures immediately short of what the scriptures say say so i said before the words ring true man so i said before the words ring true man is not flattered in this book he's shown is not flattered in this book he's shown to be the miserable and yet exalted to be the miserable and yet exalted creature that he is and when a student of scripture picks up and starts reading this is more than and starts reading this is more than than print than print on paper on paper it starts becoming alive it starts becoming alive it becomes a power it becomes a power this works this works when a person when a person wants to believe in it wants to believe in it and it and it isn't that you become and it and it isn't that you become brainwashed brainwashed it isn't that you read it so many times it isn't that you read it so many times that you become so familiar that you're that you become so familiar that you're you're duped into believing it you're duped into believing it you become aware of the problems in you become aware of the problems in solution much more than any critic solution much more than any critic and it becomes a great conviction and it becomes a great conviction from your association with it from your association with it and finally the text itself tells us and finally the text itself tells us that the that the the reason for the book the reason for the book is to bring about the obedience of faith is to bring about the obedience of faith it commands obedience from the reader it commands obedience from the reader romans chapter 16 verse 26 says that romans chapter 16 verse 26 says that another place in the old testament the another place in the old testament the new testament just to read them in new testament just to read them in entirety from deuteronomy 30 verse 19 entirety from deuteronomy 30 verse 19 quote i've set before you life and death quote i've set before you life and death blessing and curse blessing and curse therefore choose life that you and your therefore choose life that you and your descendants may live descendants may live in acts 17 30 in acts 17 30 god commands all men everywhere to god commands all men everywhere to repent repent because he's fixed a day in which he because he's fixed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness will judge the world in righteousness and so the reader of these words is and so the reader of these words is faced with this direct challenge faced with this direct challenge one day god is going to do this one day god is going to do this to you the reader to you the reader how do you respond to that challenge how do you respond to that challenge we're faced with the issues of life and we're faced with the issues of life and death and of judgment to come text itself declares god's word to be true thy word is truth john 17 17 the true thy word is truth john 17 17 the ordinances of the lord are true and ordinances of the lord are true and righteous altogether psalm 19 9 the sum righteous altogether psalm 19 9 the sum of thy word is truth psalm 119 of thy word is truth psalm 119 verse the truth and the light so it's not just scripture but a person who declares that he's truth who declares that he's truth now which is more important now which is more important the book or the person the book or the person which is more important he's a hard choice just tell me which is more important the book or the person the person someone said the book well i will argue that it's the person well i will argue that it's the person because the book itself testifies that because the book itself testifies that the person is more important turn to second timothy chapter 3 chapter 3 verse 15. it's a familiar text just taking it uh without reading the just taking it uh without reading the context particular verse 15 and how from context particular verse 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation instruct you for salvation through faith through faith in christ jesus in christ jesus so salvation comes through faith in the so salvation comes through faith in the person jesus person jesus so jesus the truth is to be sought above so jesus the truth is to be sought above and beyond having an understanding and beyond having an understanding inspire scripture now goes on to say inspire scripture now goes on to say what all scripture is inspired by god what all scripture is inspired by god and is profitable for these things and is profitable for these things that's very important that's very important but i submit that but i submit that the person the person is more important than the book is more important than the book now this verse in taunton and john and now this verse in taunton and john and the way the truth and the life if you the way the truth and the life if you take these as three distinct aspects take these as three distinct aspects it shows that more than just truth is it shows that more than just truth is involved there's a way and there's a involved there's a way and there's a life life and it's and it's truth is not the end it's a means to an truth is not the end it's a means to an end end and it shows that there's a path there's and it shows that there's a path there's a direction it needs to be channeled and a direction it needs to be channeled and so so if three distinct concepts are involved if three distinct concepts are involved then truth is but one of the three then truth is but one of the three and must not be the only or ultimate and must not be the only or ultimate pursuit pursuit however if you take these three and and however if you take these three and and see them as see them as an integrated thought an integrated thought along the lines of along the lines of the truthful way to life the truthful way to life we find that jesus is saying that he is we find that jesus is saying that he is the genuine path to salvation the genuine path to salvation so in this sense truth isn't presented so in this sense truth isn't presented in the intangible abstract form like we in the intangible abstract form like we do in our western greek thought do in our western greek thought but as a tangible living being as in but as a tangible living being as in hebrew thought hebrew thought in jesus truth is is alive it's it's in jesus truth is is alive it's it's it's dynamic it's vibrant he's capable it's dynamic it's vibrant he's capable of fulfilling and enveloping and of fulfilling and enveloping and satisfying a person satisfying a person and in this sense i submit that jesus is and in this sense i submit that jesus is obviously far superior to the written obviously far superior to the written word word and and i think there's a reason why god sent i think there's a reason why god sent jesus jesus the word made flesh i mean the bible is the word made flesh i mean the bible is a wonderful thing we've already seen a wonderful thing we've already seen that but now he sends his son that but now he sends his son what john's gospel says about it what john's gospel says about it chapter 1 verse 14 chapter 1 verse 14 the word became flesh the word became flesh and dwelt among us and dwelt among us full of grace and truth full of grace and truth and verse 17 and verse 17 for the law was given through moses and for the law was given through moses and think about that that's that's think about that that's that's an astounding statement an astounding statement that the ten commandments at the very that the ten commandments at the very days that god declared and all the law days that god declared and all the law this is the word of god given to nation this is the word of god given to nation just and holy and good and now it goes beyond that saying grace and truth grace and truth came through jesus christ and that seems came through jesus christ and that seems to be presented as something even to be presented as something even greater words of god wonderful and greater words of god wonderful and powerful the son of god more wonderful powerful the son of god more wonderful and powerful yet and powerful yet so so in seeking god's truth we need to go in seeking god's truth we need to go beyond the book itself and find the beyond the book itself and find the person of jesus person of jesus if we limit ourselves to the written if we limit ourselves to the written word where word where we're robbing ourselves and missing the we're robbing ourselves and missing the very point of why scripture was given we very point of why scripture was given we turn over a few pages in john's gospel turn over a few pages in john's gospel chapter five chapter five just a few verses here to read about the just a few verses here to read about the discourse that uh jesus had with the discourse that uh jesus had with the pharisees he says verse 39 40 john pharisees he says verse 39 40 john 5 5 you search the scriptures because you you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life think that in them you have eternal life and it is they that bear witness to me and it is they that bear witness to me yet you refuse to come to me that you yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life may have life sometimes this passage is misread and is sometimes this passage is misread and is cited as cited as search the scriptures because in them search the scriptures because in them you have eternal life you have eternal life but it doesn't read that way does it but it doesn't read that way does it he's saying he's saying you pharisees you search the scriptures you pharisees you search the scriptures because you think that in them because you think that in them you have eternal life you have eternal life but jesus says it's me that gives life but jesus says it's me that gives life not the text not the printed word it's not the text not the printed word it's the person and he says that if if you fail to believe in me believe in me eventually you end up not believing what eventually you end up not believing what is written and in fact you don't even is written and in fact you don't even believe in the word as have you gone believe in the word as have you gone says if you don't believe in his says if you don't believe in his writings how will you believe my words writings how will you believe my words verse 46 and 47. verse 46 and 47. so let us not fail to see this point so let us not fail to see this point correct bible understanding is but a correct bible understanding is but a step step towards coming to a knowledge of the towards coming to a knowledge of the truth truth it's an important step it's an important step but recognize that the truth is isn't a but recognize that the truth is isn't a set of propositions it's the person of set of propositions it's the person of the lord jesus christ the lord jesus christ now this confirmation of this found in now this confirmation of this found in the letter of paul it's in ephesians the letter of paul it's in ephesians chapter four chapter four and and again without talking immediately about again without talking immediately about the context which i will in a moment the the context which i will in a moment the verse in mind is verse 21 in ephesians verse in mind is verse 21 in ephesians 4. 4. he's talking about the he's talking about the essence essence of what they had been taught of what they had been taught verse 20 you did not solder in christ verse 20 you did not solder in christ assuming that you've heard about him and assuming that you've heard about him and were taught at him as the truth were taught at him as the truth is in jesus is in jesus now the context of this now now the context of this now it's talking about both doctrine and it's talking about both doctrine and behavior verses four to six behavior verses four to six is talking about the one lord the one is talking about the one lord the one faith one hope one baptism and so on faith one hope one baptism and so on that's all doctrinal things as we that's all doctrinal things as we generally speak about it generally speak about it uh uh speaking the truth and love verse 15 speaking the truth and love verse 15 let everyone speak the truth to his let everyone speak the truth to his neighbor verse 25 and most interesting neighbor verse 25 and most interesting it's in a context of spiritual growth it's in a context of spiritual growth verse 13 to 16. talks about growing up verse 13 to 16. talks about growing up into mature manhood don't be children into mature manhood don't be children anymore anymore verse 15 rather speaking the truth in verse 15 rather speaking the truth in love we are to grow up into every way love we are to grow up into every way into him who is the head into christ into him who is the head into christ so again it's the person so again it's the person that is important here that is important here truth centered in the person of jesus truth centered in the person of jesus not a point of academics not a point of academics but of relationships truth is integrated that is it's a composite of accurate teaching and composite of accurate teaching and correct living it isn't a list of correct living it isn't a list of doctrinal statements doctrinal statements and since a living person is involved and since a living person is involved the characteristic of integration is to the characteristic of integration is to be expected that is we don't have a be expected that is we don't have a human being slaughtered into different human being slaughtered into different things we are a whole person things we are a whole person and it can't be owned or possessed and it can't be owned or possessed it's to be declared and obeyed it's to be declared and obeyed and although it is possible to have a and although it is possible to have a list of correct statements about jesus list of correct statements about jesus in one's possession in one's possession and i think we have that in our and i think we have that in our statement of statement of faith and although it's possible to faith and although it's possible to preach accurately about christ now we preach accurately about christ now we have an example of apollos in acts 18 have an example of apollos in acts 18 verse 25 verse 25 the purpose the purpose of the correct accurate divine writing of the correct accurate divine writing is to bring about obedience to a person is to bring about obedience to a person jesus christ jesus christ who by definition cannot be owned or who by definition cannot be owned or possessed possessed and just to actually read now this and just to actually read now this passage i cited before in romans 16. passage i cited before in romans 16. um um verse verse 26 26 talking about the preaching of jesus talking about the preaching of jesus christ verse 25 but is now disclosed and christ verse 25 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations according to the known to all nations according to the command of the eternal god command of the eternal god to bring about the obedience of faith so truth is not static but dynamic is not static but dynamic contact with true spawns activity it contact with true spawns activity it generates change generates change you know contact with christ demands you know contact with christ demands growth growth growth which growth which includes faith and knowledge if we went includes faith and knowledge if we went back to back to ephesians 4 again ephesians 4 again verse 13 and 16 they talk about verse 13 and 16 they talk about knowledge and that's important that's an knowledge and that's important that's an important element of it important element of it uh joint effort with others verse 16 uh joint effort with others verse 16 from whom the whole body joining it from whom the whole body joining it together by every joint with which it is together by every joint with which it is supplied supplied when each part is working properly makes when each part is working properly makes bodily growth and that builds itself in bodily growth and that builds itself in love love so can't be sought or developed in so can't be sought or developed in isolation isolation it's the relationship then first with it's the relationship then first with jesus and with each other jesus and with each other the relationship with jesus the truth is the relationship with jesus the truth is what enables a person to put off the old what enables a person to put off the old nature and former manner of life and to nature and former manner of life and to be renewed in the spirit of his or her be renewed in the spirit of his or her mind and to put on the new nature mind and to put on the new nature created after the likeness of god in created after the likeness of god in true righteousness and holiness which is true righteousness and holiness which is from this chapter verses 22 to 24. from this chapter verses 22 to 24. it's an ongoing transformation it's an ongoing transformation not a one-time act not a one-time act i submit that if we summarize paul's i submit that if we summarize paul's usage of this term usage of this term truth it forces us to recognize it that truth it forces us to recognize it that it it's not it it's not limited to an intellectual appreciation limited to an intellectual appreciation and and the reason i harp on that so and and the reason i harp on that so much is my impression that we we tend to much is my impression that we we tend to think of truth that way it's a head think of truth that way it's a head thing rather than a life thing thing rather than a life thing it's it's it requires a commitment to follow to to it requires a commitment to follow to to get involved to do something and again get involved to do something and again this contrasts uh our westernized this contrasts uh our westernized thinking where you can think one thing thinking where you can think one thing have a philosophy have a philosophy it doesn't matter how you live it doesn't matter how you live as long as you keep your mind here you as long as you keep your mind here you can do anything with your body that's a can do anything with your body that's a greek philosophy greek philosophy now now the biblical viewpoint on this is that the biblical viewpoint on this is that how you believe must impact how you believe must impact how you behave how you behave so jesus is not an abstract idea to so jesus is not an abstract idea to merely contemplate merely contemplate he is the christ of god who preached the he is the christ of god who preached the kingdom repentance baptism and trust in kingdom repentance baptism and trust in the gospel the gospel to accept his preaching was to accept to accept his preaching was to accept truth truth not theological ideas but jesus himself not theological ideas but jesus himself as the messenger of god and as the means as the messenger of god and as the means of salvation of salvation romans 1 16 the gospel is the power of romans 1 16 the gospel is the power of god for salvation to everyone who is god for salvation to everyone who is faith faith faith in the message faith in the message yes by all means but in the words in the yes by all means but in the words in the sentences sentences no it's in the person that they were no it's in the person that they were talking about the subject of the message talking about the subject of the message and the source of the message god and the source of the message god now now i've been a bit unfair to you i've been a bit unfair to you in that i have in that i have kept this distinction between truth and kept this distinction between truth and the word and truth in a person the word and truth in a person and it's probably not quite fair for me and it's probably not quite fair for me to make you make a choice between to make you make a choice between whether the book or whether the person whether the book or whether the person is more important is more important and i've done this partly for and i've done this partly for convenience of communication convenience of communication but largely to remind ourselves that our but largely to remind ourselves that our confidence shouldn't be in this head confidence shouldn't be in this head knowledge of the bible but in knowledge of the bible but in faith in the master faith in the master i lead up to that because in in john's i lead up to that because in in john's gospel chapter 8 gospel chapter 8 this is another familiar text you might this is another familiar text you might want to look to that want to look to that scripture couples scripture couples this idea of this idea of truth in the word truth in the word and and truth in jesus verses uh 31 to 36 is the whole context and he says and he says verse 31 if you continue in my word you verse 31 if you continue in my word you are truly my disciples and you will know are truly my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will make you the truth and the truth will make you free don't put the word there but later on he says verse 36 but if the son later on he says verse 36 but if the son makes you free you will be free indeed makes you free you will be free indeed so it's one thing to believe that god's so it's one thing to believe that god's word is truth word is truth it's another thing to perceive that it it's another thing to perceive that it is jesus not bible text that frees us is jesus not bible text that frees us from sin from sin now the pharisees accepted the first now the pharisees accepted the first they believed that the scriptures were they believed that the scriptures were divinely inspired but they were blinded divinely inspired but they were blinded to the second to the second and we shouldn't fall into the same and we shouldn't fall into the same mistake mistake now sometimes it's been known i think in now sometimes it's been known i think in our community that our community that we're more intent on developing bible we're more intent on developing bible students than disciples of jesus students than disciples of jesus you know it's jesus again i can't you know it's jesus again i can't emphasize this too much he's the focus emphasize this too much he's the focus of god's book and we must realize that of god's book and we must realize that he is the truth of god the word is true jesus is truth jesus is truth well the truth because god is truth he's well the truth because god is truth he's he's the source god is true and there's four old testament scripture and there's four old testament scripture that that describe that that describe god as being true god as being true [Music] [Music] deuteronomy 32 4 says a god of deuteronomy 32 4 says a god of faithfulness and without iniquity just faithfulness and without iniquity just and righteously authorized version has and righteously authorized version has truth instead of faithfulness truth instead of faithfulness isaiah 65 16 so that he who blesses isaiah 65 16 so that he who blesses himself the land shall bless himself by himself the land shall bless himself by the god of truth the god of truth this is a different hebrew word amen is this is a different hebrew word amen is where we get our term from it where we get our term from it psalm 35 5 psalm 35 5 31 5 rather into thy hand i commit my 31 5 rather into thy hand i commit my spirit thou hast redeem me o lord spirit thou hast redeem me o lord faithful god that is god of truth faithful god that is god of truth steadfastness steadfastness finally zechariah 8 8 finally zechariah 8 8 behold i will save my people from the behold i will save my people from the east country and from the west country east country and from the west country and i will bring them to dwell in the and i will bring them to dwell in the midst of jerusalem and they shall be my midst of jerusalem and they shall be my people and i will be their god people and i will be their god in faithfulness that is truth and in in faithfulness that is truth and in righteousness righteousness and so truth in the old testament and so truth in the old testament conveys conveys the sense of certainty the sense of certainty based on based on the eternal constancy and eternity and the eternal constancy and eternity and faithfulness of god faithfulness of god who can't change who can't change now this is important i think this write-up i had on aspects of truth that's largely my westernized education that's largely my westernized education a list propositions logic things like a list propositions logic things like that that bible doesn't present truth that way it's faithfulness faithfulness reliability in a god who's certain and reliability in a god who's certain and always there always there that doesn't need mean that my my that doesn't need mean that my my education was a waste of time or that we education was a waste of time or that we can't think that way just to recognize can't think that way just to recognize the notions are quite different it's the notions are quite different it's certainly based on a faithful god certainly based on a faithful god versus accuracy based on logic versus accuracy based on logic now in addition to those old testament now in addition to those old testament citations there's at least two in the citations there's at least two in the new testament that i could think of that new testament that i could think of that supports this uh supports this uh second timothy two verse 13 second timothy two verse 13 talks about god remaining faithful talks about god remaining faithful for he cannot deny himself it's inherent for he cannot deny himself it's inherent in god to be trustworthy in hebrews 6 17 in god to be trustworthy in hebrews 6 17 he interposed with an oath that through he interposed with an oath that through two unchangeable things in which it is two unchangeable things in which it is impossible that god should prove false so it's an inherent history truth is an it's an inherent history truth is an inherent characteristic of god inherent characteristic of god and and then we come then we come to another place in john's gospel this to another place in john's gospel this is in john 4 another passage you'll be is in john 4 another passage you'll be familiar with it's in chapter familiar with it's in chapter 4 verse 23 to 24. the hour is coming and now is when true worshipers will worship the father in worshipers will worship the father in spirit and truth spirit and truth for such the father seeks to worship him for such the father seeks to worship him god is spirit god is spirit and those who worship him must worship and those who worship him must worship in spirit truth it has to follow because that's what god is like god is spirit we find out from is like god is spirit we find out from another place another place and so if he's inherently reliable and and so if he's inherently reliable and true he would expect those who worship true he would expect those who worship him to be the same notice though the coupling here with spirit spirit you know there's truth and there's you know there's truth and there's spirit spirit what kind of spirit what kind of spirit let me suggest this connection if you let me suggest this connection if you turn or you can just listen to this turn or you can just listen to this philippians chapter 3 philippians chapter 3 verse 3. verse 3. i'm just not going to give you a whole i'm just not going to give you a whole lot of time to get here lot of time to get here but for we are the true circumcision but for we are the true circumcision who worship god in spirit who worship god in spirit and glory in christ jesus and glory in christ jesus and put no confidence in the flesh the the gospel john 1 the flipping three one another one in romans one another one in romans and you get the idea and you get the idea [Music] [Music] that that the physical is eliminated and replaced the physical is eliminated and replaced with the frame of mind that gives credit with the frame of mind that gives credit to god to god in john 4 then the true worshipers were in john 4 then the true worshipers were not jews as opposed to samaritans nor not jews as opposed to samaritans nor only men as opposed to women but only men as opposed to women but anyone who approached god with the right anyone who approached god with the right heart heart any man or woman who was humble and any man or woman who was humble and contrite in spirit contrite in spirit and trembled at god's word and trembled at god's word of isaiah 66 that's who god will dwell of isaiah 66 that's who god will dwell with now just pause here think about the with now just pause here think about the implications of this teaching implications of this teaching anyone anyone that was a problem that peter had that was a problem that peter had remember with cornelius he had had this remember with cornelius he had had this vision finally his preaching to ornerius vision finally his preaching to ornerius he said and i'll just quote from acts he said and i'll just quote from acts chapter 10 verse 35 chapter 10 verse 35 he said he said truly i perceive that god shows no truly i perceive that god shows no partiality but in every nation partiality but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is anyone who fears him and does what is right right is acceptable to him now see how from a possibly limited set of doctrines teaching it says anyone who of doctrines teaching it says anyone who believes in this global form believes in this global form now now jesus is something akin to that in his jesus is something akin to that in his teaching in the gospels in matthew teaching in the gospels in matthew chapter 10 chapter 10 [Music] of my father in heaven is my brother my of my father in heaven is my brother my sister and mother suddenly you're in a sister and mother suddenly you're in a big global plane big global plane whoever does the will what does that whoever does the will what does that mean what does that constitute he mean what does that constitute he doesn't tell us doesn't tell us but it does show us the far-reaching but it does show us the far-reaching aspects of work aspects of work setting of john's setting of john's horror gospel where he's talking to the horror gospel where he's talking to the samaritan woman samaritan woman comes after chapter three where he had comes after chapter three where he had his encounter with nicodemus and i i his encounter with nicodemus and i i think the reader can't help but see the think the reader can't help but see the the obvious contrast between the two the obvious contrast between the two nicodemus was nicodemus was the teacher in israel the teacher in israel who came to talk to jesus and who came to talk to jesus and and he couldn't understand what he was and he couldn't understand what he was talking all about bible learning all talking all about bible learning all that understanding he was missing the that understanding he was missing the significance of it wasn't he significance of it wasn't he and he continued to struggle with it how and he continued to struggle with it how could a man be born again you know what could a man be born again you know what is this you're talking about is this you're talking about now it took him a while but he finally now it took him a while but he finally ends up becoming a disciple i'll ends up becoming a disciple i'll contrast that with his samaritan woman contrast that with his samaritan woman she had virtually no bible background she had virtually no bible background and and perhaps miscited some scriptures and perhaps miscited some scriptures and talking about jacob's will want to get talking about jacob's will want to get into a religious controversy into a religious controversy but but much much sooner that she sees much much sooner that she sees what jesus was talking about what jesus was talking about and she became a believer almost and she became a believer almost immediately and see the contrast here that the point isn't so much comprehension isn't so much comprehension of the text of the text as it is a response of faith to what as it is a response of faith to what jesus himself is saying now back there to the picture of god god being foundation truth inevitably jesus must point to god jesus is great truth but god is greater jesus is great truth but god is greater still jesus is quick to point that out god sent jesus as savior but god remains the primary savior if you read paul's the primary savior if you read paul's letter to titus you see the number of letter to titus you see the number of places where god is savior as well as places where god is savior as well as jesus being saved jesus being saved jesus is a great high priest jesus is a great high priest but he's priest of god most high so god but he's priest of god most high so god is higher still and we know from first is higher still and we know from first corinthians 15 that in the kingdom when corinthians 15 that in the kingdom when all is settled jesus hands it over to all is settled jesus hands it over to his father who's obviously greater his father who's obviously greater so there's a clear distinction between so there's a clear distinction between jesus and god jesus and god but but even in the days of his flesh even in the days of his flesh didn't jesus say didn't jesus say he the same mean has seen the father he the same mean has seen the father the father and i are one the father and i are one there is this equation between the two in that sense sense jesus jesus manifested god he was the word made manifested god he was the word made flesh flesh and we're going to start seeing some of and we're going to start seeing some of these equivalencies even the days of these equivalencies even the days of these fleshes like that afterwards in these fleshes like that afterwards in hebrews chapter 1 it says when he made purifications for sin he sat down at the right hand of majesty in sat down at the right hand of majesty in high high what was his character then reflects the what was his character then reflects the glory of god and bears the very stamp of glory of god and bears the very stamp of his nature his nature that's what he became that's what he became [Music] [Music] what i'm pointing out then it's what i'm pointing out then it's in one aspect of looking at this in one aspect of looking at this when you see jesus you see the father when you see jesus you see the father the father and i are one the father and i are one it's somewhat artificial on my part to it's somewhat artificial on my part to say say in terms of truth in terms of truth that there's a difference between them that there's a difference between them can you find that these possible time verses and songs [Music] it's just if you talk about one we're talking if you talk about one we're talking about the other the same for the spirit about the other the same for the spirit these two are always interchangeable it these two are always interchangeable it says scripture says says scripture says god says the spirit says who can escape from god says or who can escape from hot spirits or who can escape from hot spirits they're living unchangeable as well they're living unchangeable as well so you start getting this equation all so you start getting this equation all the way through the way through jesus of god jesus of god now this isn't leading to any trinitarian aspect that i just want to throw it out aspect that i just want to throw it out because because i hope to introduce something here what i hope to introduce something here what it tells you it tells you is how often is how often scripture thinks these things and and scripture thinks these things and and now now they're all together they're all together they're in this one you're not they're in this one you're not separating this thing separating this thing when you're talking about god and when you're talking about god and talking about his word when you talk talking about his word when you talk about jesus you're talking about the about jesus you're talking about the body body and and [Music] [Music] that's an important characteristic of that's an important characteristic of truth probably a good time to uh ask my two helpers what you're going to see here is uh is a diagram that looks like a is uh is a diagram that looks like a triangle with truth in the middle god at triangle with truth in the middle god at the top the top jesus and word at the bottoms of the jesus and word at the bottoms of the isosceles triangle isosceles triangle [Music] [Music] the reason for showing you this the reason for showing you this is that all three are one truth is that all three are one truth god the foundation god the foundation jesus the manifestation jesus the manifestation scripture being the means of revelation scripture being the means of revelation and together and together they provide an absolutely wonderful they provide an absolutely wonderful offer to us offer to us god himself says come now let us reason god himself says come now let us reason together that's isaiah 1 18. come and together that's isaiah 1 18. come and see says jesus to andrew john 1 39 see says jesus to andrew john 1 39 o taste and see that the lord is good o taste and see that the lord is good psalm 34 8. there is no other book like the bible there is no other person that even there is no other person that even begins to compare with jesus and begins to compare with jesus and certainly there is no other god so these three together invite investigation they're together invite investigation they're not afraid to have any one of these not afraid to have any one of these roots investigated because all of them roots investigated because all of them will eventually lead to truth and to will eventually lead to truth and to each other each other and they will satisfy and they will satisfy the pursuer now i kind of structure this because i think think that it it might be helpful that it it might be helpful to visualize things i i see great values to visualize things i i see great values in having things in threes in triads in having things in threes in triads and if you just look at this and if you just look at this in certain ways in certain ways [Music] [Music] here we have something that is it's also subjective and then it starts impacting your life impacting your life now now jesus is also a judgment says now now jesus is also a judgment says that he was a real historic person that he was a real historic person continues to exist although none of us continues to exist although none of us have seen him have seen him yeah they are there is to establish a yeah they are there is to establish a personal relationship with jesus personal relationship with jesus god god god is invisible we can't not only the relationship that these have with each other have with each other but to the degree that you and i but to the degree that you and i plug into this plug into this we need to establish some kind of a we need to establish some kind of a relationship with them i'm going to draw a little bit here on the blackboard so maybe you can see it the blackboard so maybe you can see it better look at god and jesus in the word in the word that's one way of looking at it that's one way of looking at it probably a better way of looking at it probably a better way of looking at it is is if you're if you're trying to view if you're if you're trying to view something if you start saying with something if you start saying with the word the word here jesus who's there who obviously provides insight into god who's there so if you look there from the front you so if you look there from the front you get the word get the word whose focus is on jesus whose focus is on jesus and god is obviously behind it all and god is obviously behind it all now these are just little pictures now these are just little pictures there's no there's no any big theology in this but it's just any big theology in this but it's just ways of looking how you can uh see the ways of looking how you can uh see the concentrated focus that these things concentrated focus that these things have and how they are uh with each other have and how they are uh with each other and to relate and to relate and if you look at these things from and if you look at these things from different points of view saying all different points of view saying all right right i want to go through a whole list of i want to go through a whole list of attacks on the bible attacks on the bible how can you prove that true why you go how can you prove that true why you go and and try and look up check out the and and try and look up check out the prophecies and do various things like prophecies and do various things like that that one of the uh one of the uh [Music] [Music] one of the big investigations that has one of the big investigations that has been made and books have been written been made and books have been written about morrisons who move the stone about morrisons who move the stone let's just look at the text the evidence let's just look at the text the evidence to see to see is it is it likely is it conceivable is it possible likely is it conceivable is it possible is it probable is it a certainty is it probable is it a certainty that jesus christ rose from the dead that jesus christ rose from the dead just as a fact of history and if it's true then the ramifications if it's not true we are men must be pity said paul doesn't he so that's an said paul doesn't he so that's an important investigation someone did that important investigation someone did that [Music] talking about the nation of israel you'll probably see a lot of that in you'll probably see a lot of that in morris's class or something you might be morris's class or something you might be listening that they're witnesses they're listening that they're witnesses they're called forth as god's witnesses called forth as god's witnesses and they're called together to argue a and they're called together to argue a case that's the investigation and that's case that's the investigation and that's what god challenges israel to do you see what god challenges israel to do you see that a lot in the prophecy of isaiah and that a lot in the prophecy of isaiah and israel continues to be a testimony to israel continues to be a testimony to that that there is the there is the the personal challenge in malachi the personal challenge in malachi chapter 3 chapter 3 when they're wondering about when they're wondering about how come god's mistreating them god says how come god's mistreating them god says all right put me to the test all right put me to the test put your trust in me and see if i don't put your trust in me and see if i don't fill your barns with things fill your barns with things so he's not afraid of the challenge and so he's not afraid of the challenge and if you start putting these various if you start putting these various investigations together investigations together [Music] [Music] we find that we find that these truths these truths prove themselves out prove themselves out when they're given the opportunity to when they're given the opportunity to work work and yet they require faith and yet they require faith in order them to in order them to really prove the process really prove the process they won't fail god cannot fail they won't fail god cannot fail scripture cannot be broken scripture cannot be broken jesus christ was saying yesterday to the jesus christ was saying yesterday to the world these are solid world these are solid they won't let us down they won't let us down we have our ultimate assurance on that we have our ultimate assurance on that that's truth that's reliability that's truth that's reliability that's what we put our trust in that's what we put our trust in [Music] [Music] there is a oneness in all those are there is a oneness in all those are there get baptized in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit the son and the holy spirit commanded to the grace of jesus love of commanded to the grace of jesus love of god fellowship of the holy spirit god fellowship of the holy spirit if any man loves me he will keep my word if any man loves me he will keep my word and my father will love him and we will and my father will love him and we will come to him and make our home in him the come to him and make our home in him the counselor of the holy spirit whom the counselor of the holy spirit whom the father will send in my name he will father will send in my name he will teach you all things and bring you to teach you all things and bring you to remembrance all the things that i've remembrance all the things that i've said said you continue to get you continue to get these types of interrelations i think i got some final stuff here [Music] something that all christians [Music] [Music] appreciate i believe and that is appreciate i believe and that is [Music] [Music] previous century previous century there is a man who there is a man who discovered he didn't know a whole lot discovered he didn't know a whole lot about the bible and was worried about about the bible and was worried about that because he almost died and he that because he almost died and he decided he would never decided he would never pursue anything else really until he got pursue anything else really until he got to the issues of life and death to the issues of life and death his name is john thomas his name is john thomas he began to look into his bible and he he began to look into his bible and he talked with people and he did some talked with people and he did some investigation and he discovered some investigation and he discovered some remarkable things he wrote a book called remarkable things he wrote a book called help us israel the hope of israel help us israel the hope of israel one of the key themes in that was one of the key themes in that was promises of the god to the woman to the woman seed of the woman in genesis seed of the woman in genesis and there's the promises made to abraham and there's the promises made to abraham the seed of abraham promises made to the seed of abraham promises made to david david and we know who that referred to we are and we know who that referred to we are jesus christ [Music] fulfilled in jesus confirmed in jesus fulfilled in jesus confirmed in jesus and what are they doing and what are they doing [Music] [Music] sin is conquered by this sin is conquered by this [Music] [Music] we will land promised is an everlasting we will land promised is an everlasting possession inheriting the earth possession inheriting the earth and there's a throne and there's a throne throne of david jerusalem and so you get throne of david jerusalem and so you get the ultimate promise he has to return it's another promise to be fulfilled this is a linear picture just a type of diagram like that just a type of diagram like that and again what it does it shows this is and again what it does it shows this is old testament stuff old testament stuff new testament stuff that's that's the new testament stuff that's that's the word word and then you get another promise who is and then you get another promise who is being fulfilled and jesus and who's the being fulfilled and jesus and who's the one that started it off who's going to one that started it off who's going to make it all happen make it all happen eventually in the kingdom of goddess eventually in the kingdom of goddess the whole earth will be filled with the the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge and glory of god knowledge and glory of god and so this book alpha's israel and so this book alpha's israel introduces us to all those aspects of introduces us to all those aspects of truth just what we would expect it fits truth just what we would expect it fits it rings true it rings true and it's one of the things we've and it's one of the things we've inherited we christadelphians have a solid rock foundation of truth rock foundation of truth because because it's built on rock it's built on rock god god jesus jesus the word critic to this man is used by god but our foundation is on is used by god but our foundation is on something much firmer and much sounder something much firmer and much sounder than that than that we can always come back and look at this we can always come back and look at this this foundation they're not afraid of this foundation they're not afraid of investigation we can look fearlessly at investigation we can look fearlessly at it look at it from anyway they invite us it look at it from anyway they invite us to do it and that's been our strength as a community community each brother and sister has the each brother and sister has the privilege and opportunity to to study privilege and opportunity to to study the scripture for him or herself the scripture for him or herself to think to think for him or herself for him or herself and to come up with an application to and to come up with an application to your own life and that's what we'll talk about in the next classes of this week i wanted to give every class a chance to a chance to make some comments or questions make some comments or questions [Music] because i'm not intending to be lecturing actually for every class you need both and for conveniently talkable and and for conveniently talkable and separately separately put the reading together and we should put the reading together and we should recognize them recognize them the word cannot be fulfilled the word cannot be fulfilled right that's right the word cannot be right that's right the word cannot be fulfilled [Music] that's a great question and i think that's a great question and i think there will be more answers as the days there will be more answers as the days go on go on so i don't need to put you off but i so i don't need to put you off but i think oftentimes use the term truth and use the term truth and own community community own community community there's there's bible justification for there's there's bible justification for that that there's a number of reasons in scripture there's a number of reasons in scripture that there's anything that that is in that there's anything that that is in proper usage proper usage however i think there are however i think there are far more far more is a far larger number is a far larger number that make us look in different areas

Transcript

well good morning again the investigation of truth is going to look at at integration of doctrine this morning integration of doctrine this morning if you remember from yesterday those of if you remember from yesterday those of you who may not have been here or for you who may not have been here or for those whose brains are now just engaging those whose brains are now just engaging in the second day in the second day we talked about the bible the word of we talked about the bible the word of god god jesus christ and god himself being jesus christ and god himself being truth truth solid truth reliable truth rock truth solid truth reliable truth rock truth something we can depend upon something we can depend upon and because of their divine and because of their divine characteristics characteristics they invite they invite investigation investigation in our heritage as christadelphians in our heritage as christadelphians coming to scriptures and our willingness coming to scriptures and our willingness to to to look at what the book says and to see to look at what the book says and to see what god offers through jesus christ this too is sought because it's built upon the foundation of jesus christ and upon the foundation of jesus christ and the teaching of scripture the teaching of scripture and so when we invite our friends to and so when we invite our friends to come and sit down and talk about these come and sit down and talk about these things with open bible we're not afraid things with open bible we're not afraid of such investigation because we have of such investigation because we have high confidence not in ourselves high confidence not in ourselves but in what the truth of the matter is gonna be in these three groupings we're going to be exploring particular texts going to be exploring particular texts uh looking at truth from its multiple uh looking at truth from its multiple aspects or levels aspects or levels and we're going to relook at our own and we're going to relook at our own traditional basis of things in terms of traditional basis of things in terms of common ground the implications common ground the implications and answering the concerns that and answering the concerns that will arise out of that investigation will arise out of that investigation also for also for some of where we left off yesterday we were talking about different structures talking about different structures different pictures different pictures uh we we had the triangular one uh we we had the triangular one we had maybe the telescopic one we had maybe the telescopic one we had we had [Music] [Music] there's all kinds of things the truth there's all kinds of things the truth might also be regarded as might also be regarded as three states grilled in the ground to three states grilled in the ground to hook onto hook onto the word and god and jesus it depends the word and god and jesus it depends what serves best in your mind to help what serves best in your mind to help convey this idea of convey this idea of salinity salinity stability steadfastness stability steadfastness unchangeableness but whatever you yesterday we just started talking about one of the great things discovered by one of the great things discovered by dr john thomas the seed promises one of the basis of of alpha's israel alpha's israel and i'd written these on the board and and i'd written these on the board and these were kind of this was kind of a these were kind of this was kind of a linear packet structure linear packet structure the seed of the woman the seed of the seed of the woman the seed of abraham seed of david abraham seed of david they're fulfilled in jesus they're fulfilled in jesus um um now what were the promises about well now what were the promises about well there was a victor that was promised in there was a victor that was promised in genesis genesis also in genesis there was a land also in genesis there was a land promised promised seed for david a throne promised seed for david a throne promised and we know there's a text that's worth and we know there's a text that's worth reading it's romans chapter 15 verse reading it's romans chapter 15 verse 8 8 it reads it reads for i tell you that christ became a for i tell you that christ became a servant to the circumcised servant to the circumcised to show god's truthfulness to show god's truthfulness in order to confirm the promises given in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs and in order that the to the patriarchs and in order that the gentiles might glorify god for his mercy gentiles might glorify god for his mercy as it is written and then he as it is written and then he cites an old testament so there you have cites an old testament so there you have brought together the truthfulness the brought together the truthfulness the promises something that gentiles are promises something that gentiles are welcomed into welcomed into [Music] [Music] and when you look at this and when you look at this we know that christ of quality promised we know that christ of quality promised to to return in acts chapter 1. return in acts chapter 1. because he spent 40 days in 48 40 dice because he spent 40 days in 48 40 dice after them just as the 40 days where after them just as the 40 days where they were speaking about the things they were speaking about the things concerning the kingdom and it wasn't concerning the kingdom and it wasn't time for the kingdom to be restored to time for the kingdom to be restored to israel so the promised return has israel so the promised return has inherited inherited the kingdom the kingdom now we rightly look at this and says say now we rightly look at this and says say to ourselves because this is a plain to ourselves because this is a plain teaching a clear teaching ample bible teaching a clear teaching ample bible evidence for that what are some of the evidence for that what are some of the implications of this well one thing is pretty certain this this this kingdom is a liberal this kingdom is a liberal political political future future kingdom this tv established on earth kingdom this tv established on earth lots of verses for that daniel 2 44 lots of verses for that daniel 2 44 being one of them being one of them therefore the kingdom of heaven and the therefore the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of god cannot be the church kingdom of god cannot be the church and it's taught in other places and it's taught in other places so so the truth the truth excludes something else from being true and you go on in this it's it's thy kingdom come thy will be done on thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth earth it's a heavenly kingdom that's its it's a heavenly kingdom that's its origin but it's to come to earth origin but it's to come to earth and if it comes to earth and since we and if it comes to earth and since we have something like this have something like this land earth the same term land earth the same term then here's where the reward is going to then here's where the reward is going to be be and therefore and therefore heaven is not the reward or the believer heaven is not the reward or the believer hope cannot be true hope cannot be true [Music] [Music] and that's a valid conclusion abram's dead so is david so is david what the scriptures talk about them in what the scriptures talk about them in terms that terms that they will see the promise fulfilled they will see the promise fulfilled the only way that can happen is that the only way that can happen is that they must be made alive again they must be made alive again therefore they must be raised from the therefore they must be raised from the dead dead so not only you have gone into this the so not only you have gone into this the teaching of the teaching of the resurrection and in fact that's the very resurrection and in fact that's the very thing that jesus argues about god being thing that jesus argues about god being a god of hebrews for jacob he's the god a god of hebrews for jacob he's the god of the living now the god of the dead of the living now the god of the dead and therefore there's a resurrection it shows that the hope of a man the hope of a man is that he will rise again is that he will rise again and that there is not something inherent and that there is not something inherent in him that keeps on living in him that keeps on living for example the teaching of the for example the teaching of the immortality of the soul that is not part immortality of the soul that is not part of this if this is true there is no root of this if this is true there is no root for the teaching of an immortal soul for the teaching of an immortal soul upon which if a person dies he gets his upon which if a person dies he gets his reward in a way that doesn't fit into reward in a way that doesn't fit into this and so we rightfully exclude that this and so we rightfully exclude that type of teaching and it's proper i think to present it that way here's the good news but the that way here's the good news but the good news excludes some of these false good news excludes some of these false teachings but truth invites investigation truth invites investigation let's take a few steps let's take a few steps beyond this here's where i'm planning to have a paramount participation so when i paramount participation so when i ask ask what ordinarily would be rhetorical what ordinarily would be rhetorical questions and you probably sit there and questions and you probably sit there and let me go on i'm i'm gonna expect you to let me go on i'm i'm gonna expect you to say yay or nay say yay or nay well well it's coming in a moment but i'm just it's coming in a moment but i'm just warning this is going to be your time is it true that the kingdom of god that the kingdom of god is only presented as a literal political is only presented as a literal political future kingdom okay if that's not the only usage is what is your evidence that would say it what is your evidence that would say it means something more than that means something more than that give me some for example why do you say give me some for example why do you say i agree with you i agree with you some for instance caution against caution they were so it's not necessarily a future kingdom it's in the past but there's a very it's in the past but there's a very political one political one [Music] [Music] okay okay and that's in luke's gospel both and that's in luke's gospel both chapters 16 chapters 16 [Music] [Music] did jesus say that i am the kingdom of did jesus say that i am the kingdom of god god uh uh he might have but i don't remember where he might have but i don't remember where but i said he said something is but i said he said something is comparable to that well mark's gospel jesus comes and says the kingdom of god is at hand and then it becomes what did he mean by that then it becomes what did he mean by that and i think he's talking about himself and i think he's talking about himself okay okay so so kingdom advantage kingdom advantage that you will be able to be sacredly that you will be able to be sacredly scribbling but that's that's all right scribbling but that's that's all right yes you can see every amazing jake yes you can see every amazing jake yeah that's referred to the future matthew 23 jesus says that the pharisees shut the kingdom against men shut the kingdom against men there's no way that they could do that there's no way that they could do that in the eternal sense in the eternal sense that matthew 23 13 that matthew 23 13 here's he's trying to shut the kingdom here's he's trying to shut the kingdom of god of god and and if you want some of these verses i can if you want some of these verses i can give them to you afterwards but this is give them to you afterwards but this is sufficient i think to point out that sufficient i think to point out that there are there are other usages of the kingdom other usages of the kingdom that could not refer to a measurable that could not refer to a measurable future political one it must mean future political one it must mean something else and as ron has something else and as ron has intimidated intimidated at least one aspect is the presence of at least one aspect is the presence of jesus himself he's representing the jesus himself he's representing the authority or the kingdom or the authority or the kingdom or the sovereignty of god sovereignty of god and that's and that's what begins to take place in the life of what begins to take place in the life of a believer that god begins a believer that god begins to have a sovereignty over a man's life to have a sovereignty over a man's life or a woman's life so or a woman's life so if you get on just the basic principle if you get on just the basic principle which is right if this is true there which is right if this is true there this will happen this will happen that doesn't discount these other things that doesn't discount these other things from being true as well from being true as well so that's just a little bit of an so that's just a little bit of an expansion of a uh first principle expansion of a uh first principle now let me now let me do a little bit of a shift here for you do a little bit of a shift here for you and i'm sorry if something you can't see and i'm sorry if something you can't see through the podium but i tried to write through the podium but i tried to write this up pretty high these references this up pretty high these references down here the points have been made down here the points have been made suppose we look at what's called the c promises or what i call the seed promises a lot of times and i was certainly nourished on this the promises to nourished on this the promises to abraham are the key bible promises well there's at least two others but that's okay because it's all part of but that's okay because it's all part of one thing and that's kind of what it one thing and that's kind of what it means anyhow means anyhow in fact when you look across these these in fact when you look across these these are all key promises are all key promises return promise return promise that's important as well so there's at that's important as well so there's at least four key promises but my question least four key promises but my question now is now is and now it's your opportunity and now it's your opportunity are these the only are these the only major significant promises made by god major significant promises made by god in scripture no okay for example what are some other key okay for example what are some other key promises that god has made the flood made to noah and the animals into all the earth who never do that into all the earth who never do that that's that's that's a promise that affects us that's a promise that affects us directly directly that's in genesis that's in genesis for the major tenets of the gospel [Music] okay okay the promise of us being a new creature i don't think we have explicit terms that put it that way but i i would terms that put it that way but i i would agree with the idea i'm looking for agree with the idea i'm looking for something that would really be determine something that would really be determine the promise but that's still correct the promise but that's still correct and forgiveness of sins all right a couple heads up over there you just have to call up have to call up the blood of the everlasting president good point and i'm going to talk about that next so we'll put over here let's put that on the shelf we'll come back in a second [Music] never leave me nor for safety never leave me nor for safety i think that starts first i think that starts first with god's promise to joshua i remember with god's promise to joshua i remember and there's other places that talk about and there's other places that talk about it is picked up in hebrews it is picked up in hebrews okay there's one more that was okay there's one more that was contending with that promise okay but that's that's good enough these are good in fact uh are good in fact uh i didn't thought about some of these i i didn't thought about some of these i thought about this one thought about this one and i thought about this one it was the and i thought about this one it was the third one i thought about third one i thought about that uh okay it was close there's actually a it was close there's actually a combination of these two it's where combination of these two it's where jesus in jesus in john 14 says that john 14 says that i and my father will come i and my father will come and abide in you and abide in you which is a good thing i looked at my which is a good thing i looked at my notes again because i wanted to expand notes again because i wanted to expand into that for a second it's in john 14 into that for a second it's in john 14 remember where he says remember where he says we will come again and make our mold we will come again and make our mold with you we will tabernacle with you with you we will tabernacle with you here's the dwelling of god here's the dwelling of god coming to be with a man coming to be with a man or a woman that believes in him or a woman that believes in him and that's not surprising because isaiah and that's not surprising because isaiah 66 2 said that that's the type of person 66 2 said that that's the type of person that god would dwell with that god would dwell with those who believe in him in his word and those who believe in him in his word and it's not surprising because that's how it's not surprising because that's how the ecclesia is built it's a spiritual the ecclesia is built it's a spiritual ruling place ruling place uh for uh for the spirit of god ephesians 2 22 i think the spirit of god ephesians 2 22 i think it says that it says that what we're getting into here is a couple what we're getting into here is a couple things first of all there are other very things first of all there are other very significant and important promises in significant and important promises in scripture scripture and they lead to things like and they lead to things like the promise of the resurrection and the the promise of the resurrection and the promise of forgiveness and the promise promise of forgiveness and the promise of of dwelling in us dwelling in us now i mean this is a promise that's now i mean this is a promise that's fulfilled now in our life fulfilled now in our life if you uh would reference in if you uh would reference in points in john's letter his first letter points in john's letter his first letter or he talks about we are children of god or he talks about we are children of god now we have eternal life now we have eternal life now now of course we understand that in the of course we understand that in the sense that this is sense that this is a reality that's conditional upon a reality that's conditional upon faithfulness to the end faithfulness to the end but once you put it in its proper but once you put it in its proper context it's already think that way this isn't a radical departure from radical departure from baseline promises which are very baseline promises which are very important important but you get into another level of facts but you get into another level of facts and you start getting immediately into and you start getting immediately into an application to your own lives an application to your own lives now we come to now we come to the blood of the everlasting culture the blood of the everlasting culture where is that verse the gospel the blood where is that verse the gospel the blood of the everlasting covenant remember of the everlasting covenant remember it's in hebrews right 13 it's in hebrews right 13 something like that okay here's my question where does the bible first mention where does the bible first mention everlasting covenant genesis genesis 17 genesis 17 in association with in association with abraham abraham i submit there's a earlier place i submit there's a earlier place but that's a good guess that's where that's true that's associated here i'm being very picky this morning though i'm being very picky this morning though i'm looking for the words everlasting looking for the words everlasting covenant to be part of the verse itself that was the noah right so it's in genesis chapter 9. so the everlasting covenant begins not with abraham with abraham as i used to think for years as i used to think for years but at least the first bible usage of it but at least the first bible usage of it is with noah is with noah and in fact when you take out your and in fact when you take out your concordance and do a bit of concordance and do a bit of investigation investigation let me tell you some other places where let me tell you some other places where you find everlasting covenant the one you find everlasting covenant the one with noah is genesis 9 16 with noah is genesis 9 16 there's one made with aaron for israel there's one made with aaron for israel leviticus 24 verse 8 leviticus 24 verse 8 perpetual priesthood for phineas numbers perpetual priesthood for phineas numbers 25 13 25 13 a covenant to all who come to the lord a covenant to all who come to the lord isaiah 55 3 on the same lines as he did isaiah 55 3 on the same lines as he did with david with david and a similar everlasting covenant to and a similar everlasting covenant to spiritual israel isaiah 61 8 and is spiritual israel isaiah 61 8 and is confirmed by jeremiah 32 40 and ezekiel confirmed by jeremiah 32 40 and ezekiel 16. there's a bunch of everlasting covenants though i think you would agree that though i think you would agree that after you investigate them after you investigate them some of them tend to be more important some of them tend to be more important than others but key question than others but key question why why is it called the everlasting covenant it's a simple answer why do you think it would be called the everlasting covenant because god made it and it can't be broken right because and it can't be broken right because god's an everlasting god god's an everlasting god and that's the primary meaning of the and that's the primary meaning of the everlasting covenant it can't fail everlasting covenant it can't fail because god has made it so you look look at these promises see promises promises very important very important but now but now if we were to look at these if we were to look at these just themselves and this is perhaps an unfair question but i'm going to ask it anyhow but i'm going to ask it anyhow which of those three promises which of those three promises is the most important right if your sins aren't forgiven if you don't live on forever to enjoy it you don't live on forever to enjoy it doesn't matter if there's doesn't matter if there's the land so this is more important i the land so this is more important i think than these think than these now now i'm cautionary i don't want to make one i'm cautionary i don't want to make one more important he's not contending with more important he's not contending with each other but from our own minds we each other but from our own minds we need to see need to see it needs to start with this if sin isn't it needs to start with this if sin isn't conquered if christ doesn't defeat that conquered if christ doesn't defeat that then the rest won't happen then the rest won't happen and it doesn't affect and it doesn't affect two comings of jesus he dealt with that two comings of jesus he dealt with that one first that's been established one first that's been established it's coming to fulfill the other two now todd treadway this one's yours todd treadway this one's yours you know i don't want to ask don't you you know i don't want to ask don't you sure you do talk about the promise to abraham here in the land promise okay in the land promise okay in the promises made to abraham in the promises made to abraham what are what are what is probably the key point in all of what is probably the key point in all of the uh the uh of the uh the promise of the uh the promise uh todd and i were at the bloomington study date and uh he was writing the answer he date and uh he was writing the answer he came down there and i came down there and i put him on the spot and said that there put him on the spot and said that there was probably a better answer so he i was probably a better answer so he i hope doesn't mind me doing it again you'll get in with me god the point is the point is here is generally for years the promised here is generally for years the promised media amen was the land everlasting media amen was the land everlasting possession and that's possession and that's correct correct but if you look at all the things that but if you look at all the things that god says to me for him god says to me for him and if you look at what and if you look at what in other places in scripture god in other places in scripture god promises you'll find that the promises you'll find that the more fundamental idea of what god says more fundamental idea of what god says to abraham is that i will be your god to abraham is that i will be your god and your people will be my people and your people will be my people if you get out your concordance and try if you get out your concordance and try to find all the places where that idea to find all the places where that idea is is you'll be amazed and you'll be well you'll be amazed and you'll be well rewarded by your research because what rewarded by your research because what happens happens is that you stop thinking about a is that you stop thinking about a territory a specific reward and evolve territory a specific reward and evolve into the right thinking that here in into the right thinking that here in this promise this promise is any as a relationship is any as a relationship an eternal relationship an everlasting an eternal relationship an everlasting relationship promised to us to let god be our god we will be his people and by the way we will be his people and by the way that's not saying the same thing two that's not saying the same thing two different ways that shows god's different ways that shows god's willingness to be identified with us willingness to be identified with us and it shows the necessity for us to and it shows the necessity for us to have god to be our daughter have god to be our daughter it's too hard it's too hard lots of fun and exploration reward there lots of fun and exploration reward there and what i'm trying to show you is that and what i'm trying to show you is that you can start from you can start from basic teaching basic teaching and once excluded from it and once excluded from it and you build on more expansion the and you build on more expansion the kingdom of god is more than just kingdom of god is more than just something in the future something now something in the future something now in fact there's a promise now in fact there's a promise now big promises now more than these even big promises now more than these even when you look at these it's more than when you look at these it's more than what is the basics what is the basics it's something to get into and it's something to get into and investigate and that investigation investigate and that investigation leads to some leads to some just just marvelous things marvelous things so what i would like someone to tell you so what i would like someone to tell you right now this basically summarizes a number of the things we've been talking about but the things we've been talking about but i didn't want to give it to you too i didn't want to give it to you too early so while they're handing them out i'll just read some things here just read some things here basic idea of the kingdom basic idea of the kingdom more than one aspect more than one aspect principles are more than facts they lead principles are more than facts they lead to areas which require appropriate to areas which require appropriate changes in thinking and behavior and changes in thinking and behavior and quickly lead to immediate personal quickly lead to immediate personal applications applications we talked about the we talked about the see promises leading to see promises leading to bigger and greater teaching scripture bigger and greater teaching scripture itself urges us to get into the itself urges us to get into the exploration of such teaching exploration of such teaching hebrews 6 1 hebrews 6 1 therefore let us leave the elementary therefore let us leave the elementary doctrines or first principles of christ doctrines or first principles of christ and go on to maturity and go on to maturity we're encouraged to grow we're encouraged to grow and in fact all of these tied together and in fact all of these tied together you know for convenience we've been you know for convenience we've been talking about talking about different aspects different aspects but it's really integrated doctrine but it's really integrated doctrine they're all together they're all together and we should be surprised then if it's and we should be surprised then if it's not not simplistic simple to understand but not simplistic because because it deals with life it deals with the it deals with life it deals with the whole of life and we know that life is whole of life and we know that life is not simplistic not simplistic and the complexity is not there to and the complexity is not there to challenge to discourage us but to challenge to discourage us but to challenge us challenge us it's been already cited proverbs 25 2 it it's been already cited proverbs 25 2 it is the glory of god to conceal things is the glory of god to conceal things the glory of kings the glory of kings is to search things out is to search things out and that same and that same applies to ourselves as written by the applies to ourselves as written by the apostle paul he writes in first apostle paul he writes in first corinthians 2 verse 10 corinthians 2 verse 10 quote but we impart a secret and hidden quote but we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of god which god decreed before wisdom of god which god decreed before the ages for our glorification the ages for our glorification quote from isaiah 64 4 quote from isaiah 64 4 what no eye has seen nor ear heard nor what no eye has seen nor ear heard nor the heart of man can see the heart of man can see what god has prepared for those who love what god has prepared for those who love him and a quote and then paul continues him and a quote and then paul continues god has revealed to us god has revealed to us through the spirit through the spirit now this now this first corinthians 2 context is first corinthians 2 context is talking about believers being greater talking about believers being greater than earthly kings than earthly kings and the secret or mystery is revealed so and the secret or mystery is revealed so that we can understand it that we can understand it the means of revelation is by the spirit the means of revelation is by the spirit which was a first century revelation which was a first century revelation and by and by comparing spiritual things with comparing spiritual things with spiritual things as verse 13 in that spiritual things as verse 13 in that setting talks about and that's something setting talks about and that's something we can do this is comparing scripture we can do this is comparing scripture with scripture with scripture again the context which shows that again the context which shows that applies equally to all brethren applies equally to all brethren all of whom are insignificant all of whom are insignificant but whose call is from god so that no but whose call is from god so that no man could boast that's colossians 1 man could boast that's colossians 1 26-31 so the context again is important 26-31 so the context again is important and what that leads up to is and what that leads up to is we know as a community there we know as a community there there should be no special status of there should be no special status of leaders no hierarchy in a christ had an leaders no hierarchy in a christ had an ecclesia ecclesia that's what the theory is that's what the theory is sometimes in our community practice it's sometimes in our community practice it's not that way but at least that's the way not that way but at least that's the way the scripture presents it the scripture presents it and because of these things that we can and because of these things that we can understand these mysteries understand these mysteries that all are on the same level when it that all are on the same level when it comes to investigation comes to investigation there's not one of us in this room there's not one of us in this room neither brother nor sister nor neither brother nor sister nor interested friend interested friend who should who should hesitate hesitate to go back to basic tenets of teaching to go back to basic tenets of teaching and look at them again and look at them again because you won't break them you won't because you won't break them you won't find out that they're wrong you can only find out that they're wrong you can only find more good quote stuff in them find more good quote stuff in them things that are helpful for ourselves things that are helpful for ourselves now now i want you to all pay close attention to i want you to all pay close attention to what's going to happen what's going to happen i've seated two people in the audience i've seated two people in the audience to come up and perform a task for me so to come up and perform a task for me so if they will do it if they will do it i want you to just watch what happens now we've all seen the same thing right we've all seen the same thing right let's investigate the truth of this let's investigate the truth of this matter what happened someone over here in this time tell me tell me what happened any time tell me tell me what happened any volunteer volunteer 40 words or less paul zimmer i pick on you because you're my brother-in-law and i can live with my brother-in-law and i can live with you what you what uh happened woman stood up on the left uh happened woman stood up on the left side of the side of the uh about the right side and both watched the front and it'll be the book exit to the front and it'll be the book exit to the left side the left side okay and i bet if i kept on asking every one of you he will be saying every one of you he will be saying something pretty close to that something pretty close to that or you might think that i'm asking you or you might think that i'm asking you devious questions and you start devious questions and you start interpreting it right and you would be right because because this little object lesson that i want to this little object lesson that i want to explore now for a few minutes explore now for a few minutes will tell us very plainly that there's will tell us very plainly that there's many viewpoints and all are equally many viewpoints and all are equally valid valid some of them would be fuller and clearer some of them would be fuller and clearer than others due to the attention like than others due to the attention like someone was nodding off to sleep when someone was nodding off to sleep when this was happening because they had a this was happening because they had a chance chance we can we can deal with that we can we can deal with that now now should we try to investigate this should we try to investigate this further further i mean did they spontaneously get up i mean did they spontaneously get up or by my request well i told you that or by my request well i told you that i'd asked them so you know i'd asked them so you know what was the book what was the book that they gave me that they gave me okay okay were they returning it to me or were were they returning it to me or were they giving it to me if they're returning it why did they borrow borrow if they were giving it why did i want it if they were giving it why did i want it returned and when did i want to return who published the book why does it make a difference a difference the thing is what you observe is you the thing is what you observe is you need to ask to get more information need to ask to get more information don't you don't you it can go down to many levels it can go down to many levels into many areas into many areas example let's deal with the concept of example let's deal with the concept of grasping my book grasping my book is is that important is is that important what what about all the muscular details what what about all the muscular details of grasping of grasping no one was in the right hand on the left no one was in the right hand on the left hand is there some significance there hand is there some significance there one was a man and one was a woman one was a man and one was a woman it was that important it was that important it didn't matter where they placed the it didn't matter where they placed the book book you can you can really get down to an area where you have to be careful because you you you have to be careful because you you get off the initial point get off the initial point and into and into areas of insignificance in fact that's a areas of insignificance in fact that's a very good question to ask to begin is very good question to ask to begin is this just a trivial event this just a trivial event or is it something that requires or is it something that requires interpretation well let's assume for a interpretation well let's assume for a moment that requires some interpretation is it significance that there was a man and a woman involved you know one went on from all the way around and one just from all the way around and one just went back the same path is that went back the same path is that significant significant one used the left hand and one the right one used the left hand and one the right hand is that so without further information it's only without further information it's only valid to say that valid to say that what paul basically said without what paul basically said without anything further it's just guesswork anything further it's just guesswork isn't it isn't it and there's a danger of going too far and there's a danger of going too far for example maybe maybe there's some for example maybe maybe there's some conspiracy between the three of us maybe conspiracy between the three of us maybe we've talked earlier about this maybe we've talked earlier about this maybe maybe there's some deep dark secret and maybe there's some deep dark secret and even if you ask this if there's a dark even if you ask this if there's a dark secret would we tell you secret would we tell you [Music] [Music] of course we wouldn't of course we wouldn't uh now uh now come on delivery of two handbooks of two come on delivery of two handbooks of two hymn books in public at a bible school i hymn books in public at a bible school i mean is that really grounds for a mean is that really grounds for a conspiracy you can see how something conspiracy you can see how something that's so that's so improbable or impossible it leads to improbable or impossible it leads to absurdity but it does show what the absurdity but it does show what the human mind can do if you want to start human mind can do if you want to start looking looking for for bad things it shows that we can go through the motions of wanting to find truth without motions of wanting to find truth without really wanting to find the right answers really wanting to find the right answers for it for it so so quick recap here everyone in the group quick recap here everyone in the group can have a valid viewpoint to a greater can have a valid viewpoint to a greater or lesser degree and discussion among or lesser degree and discussion among the observers and further inquiry of the the observers and further inquiry of the walkers is bound to get closer to the walkers is bound to get closer to the full story or truth of the event full story or truth of the event and assuming it was worth further and assuming it was worth further investigation the resulting conclusion investigation the resulting conclusion depends on what line of reasoning or depends on what line of reasoning or questioning was taken questioning was taken relevant questions and valid reasoning relevant questions and valid reasoning will keep the investigator on a will keep the investigator on a meaningful and logical path meaningful and logical path but even with the best intentions and but even with the best intentions and effort the conclusion or interpretation effort the conclusion or interpretation will be limited to the information will be limited to the information available available and in fact may be biased by several and in fact may be biased by several factors such as our background factors such as our background our experience our training our age our our experience our training our age our sex sex so we need to recognize that the pursuit so we need to recognize that the pursuit of truth is limited to the available of truth is limited to the available resources resources and possession of truth is marred and and possession of truth is marred and clouded by human nature clouded by human nature full comprehensive truth has many full comprehensive truth has many aspects aspects many angles many suit pursuits are many angles many suit pursuits are possible it's complex it's integrated possible it's complex it's integrated it's contextual that is you need to know it's contextual that is you need to know what the context is what the context is and and therefore no single human being and and therefore no single human being has a market on truth that is no person has a market on truth that is no person or group will ever have the total or group will ever have the total complete picture complete picture at best at best some people some people have or groups of people have a better have or groups of people have a better approximation of things than others approximation of things than others there's still a version or approximation there's still a version or approximation of the truth of the truth and it can undoubtedly be improved and it can undoubtedly be improved and so although and so although full complete full complete truth of god exists truth of god exists we humans live with something less than we humans live with something less than that that i call it my notes here working truth i call it my notes here working truth that is the information or knowledge that is the information or knowledge sufficient for living and for discussion sufficient for living and for discussion and for arriving at a correct or better and for arriving at a correct or better information information we humans settle on understanding and we humans settle on understanding and say close enough for me say close enough for me and this makes sense and this makes sense otherwise we would be forever asking otherwise we would be forever asking questions and trying to come to questions and trying to come to knowledge of the truth which is knowledge of the truth which is impossible anyhow impossible anyhow so so now with that we come up to number three now with that we come up to number three let's talk about some of the common let's talk about some of the common ground that we have and in case ground that we have and in case there's any misunderstanding of what i'm there's any misunderstanding of what i'm trying to communicate here it's uh trying to communicate here it's uh i'm not suggesting i'm not suggesting that there's any inadequacy or fault in that there's any inadequacy or fault in god's truth god's truth i'm not suggesting that all truth is i'm not suggesting that all truth is relative relative or that we kristadophians should never or that we kristadophians should never claim that we have the truth although claim that we have the truth although that's an improper notion i i mentioned that's an improper notion i i mentioned yesterday just let me briefly read yesterday just let me briefly read from john's second letter from john's second letter first four verses first four verses the elder to the elect lady and her the elder to the elect lady and her children whom i love in the truth children whom i love in the truth and not only i but also all who know the and not only i but also all who know the truth because of the truth which abides truth because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever in us and will be with us forever grace mercy and peace will be with us grace mercy and peace will be with us from god the father and from jesus from god the father and from jesus christ the father son christ the father son in truth and love in truth and love i rejoice greatly to find some of your i rejoice greatly to find some of your children following the truth just as children following the truth just as we've been commanded by the father we've been commanded by the father so it's okay the way we use it as a so it's okay the way we use it as a community community what i'm trying to point out is that what i'm trying to point out is that there is a bigger picture that needs to there is a bigger picture that needs to be looked at be looked at and i'm trying to point out that we have and i'm trying to point out that we have limitations in the matter limitations in the matter for common ground a further for common ground a further investigation then investigation then we got our bible 66 books all the case we got our bible 66 books all the case examples examples given to us to be examined understood given to us to be examined understood obeyed obeyed and every disciple has the duty and and every disciple has the duty and privilege to search the scriptures for privilege to search the scriptures for him or herself there is not one brother him or herself there is not one brother or sister who is infallible on this or sister who is infallible on this matter matter so so [Music] [Music] we have no hierarchy we have no hierarchy everyone i believe is capable of everyone i believe is capable of learning and determining what correct learning and determining what correct bible teaching is bible teaching is and once understood the disciple is and once understood the disciple is obliged to live his or her life in obliged to live his or her life in accordance with that teaching accordance with that teaching now we have a standard approach to this now we have a standard approach to this doctrine is both belief and behavior doctrine is both belief and behavior and groups of disciples which have and groups of disciples which have agreed to associate on a common agreed to associate on a common understanding of key bible teaching or understanding of key bible teaching or go first principles go first principles still go back to scripture itself for still go back to scripture itself for verification and for evaluation verification and for evaluation example that is we have a statement of example that is we have a statement of faith that we use for convenience but faith that we use for convenience but when an issue comes up we don't say see when an issue comes up we don't say see this is so the statement of faith we this is so the statement of faith we should say see it says there in the should say see it says there in the bible now there are some implications to this there are some implications to this and here's where you're going to and here's where you're going to participate again participate again first question first question if there is a conflict in teaching if there is a conflict in teaching between the words of a human author and between the words of a human author and a book of the bible a book of the bible which must be taken as authoritative right so when we come to things so when we come to things in the book of mormon and joseph smith in the book of mormon and joseph smith and he talks about the immortal the soul and he talks about the immortal the soul we say that's not right because that's we say that's not right because that's in direct contradiction with the bible in direct contradiction with the bible now let me read you these words and you now let me read you these words and you tell me if they are correct tell me if they are correct foundation foundation that the book currently known as the that the book currently known as the bible bible consisting of the scriptures of moses consisting of the scriptures of moses the prophets and the apostles the prophets and the apostles is the only source of knowledge is the only source of knowledge concerning god and his purposes at concerning god and his purposes at present extent or available in the earth what's right or wrong actually what's wrong right or wrong actually what's wrong with that statement it's incomplete that's right and it's incomplete because it flatly contradicts incomplete because it flatly contradicts what scripture says what scripture says because psalm 19 verses 1 to 4 make it because psalm 19 verses 1 to 4 make it very plain that the heavens very plain that the heavens declared the glory of god and are a declared the glory of god and are a source of knowledge and information and source of knowledge and information and this statement would exclude that this statement would exclude that moreover it thinks that moreover it thinks that only apostolic writings are scripture only apostolic writings are scripture was luke an apostle i don't think we have any explicit text that says so does that explicit text that says so does that suddenly mean that his gospel and acts suddenly mean that his gospel and acts are no longer scripture are no longer scripture you know where i read this from you know where i read this from sure it's from our statement of faith now this is much less serious than say something in the book of mormon and not something in the book of mormon and not that i'm particularly knocking that that i'm particularly knocking that because it is uh our own foundation basis contradicts scripture and leaves out two books of scripture and leaves out two books of the bible the bible but we know what it means what it's but we know what it means what it's intended and so that's okay this is a intended and so that's okay this is a good approximation of the truth and we good approximation of the truth and we can go forward on that can go forward on that but in case anyone wants to make a good but in case anyone wants to make a good case for the statement of faith we're case for the statement of faith we're off to two strikes against us on our off to two strikes against us on our foundation you know kind of wobbly foundation you know kind of wobbly and please you know i'm not knocking and please you know i'm not knocking that i just if you want to be really that i just if you want to be really technical about it here's where it comes technical about it here's where it comes down to but that's not the issue is it down to but that's not the issue is it now i have a whole series of yes no now i have a whole series of yes no uh questions and you can answer yes or uh questions and you can answer yes or no because if you want to no because if you want to but i need to really get through these but i need to really get through these the question is if there is a conflict the question is if there is a conflict in viewpoints between two brethren in viewpoints between two brethren or sisters or sisters we should accept as being correct the we should accept as being correct the one who one who is older spoke or wrote it last spoke wrote it better is a brother versus a sister is an elder in the ephesia versus a new is an elder in the ephesia versus a new convert convert reason the better here getting closer provided the more evidence evidence provided the more bible evidence provided the more bible evidence provided the better relevant bible provided the better relevant bible evidence and it's really only the last evidence and it's really only the last one that you can say yes to the point is it's bible-based valid evidence that makes it right evidence that makes it right none of the others none of the others can both be correct yes can both be partly correct and partly can both be partly correct and partly incorrect so there's valid alternatives in some cases right cases right is correctness the only criteria to is correctness the only criteria to consider is there a bigger picture to consider sometimes is the matter that critical to fully resolve right the point is there may be a more important overriding thing important overriding thing now here's my third question now here's my third question if there has been a traditional if there has been a traditional interpretation of a particular passage interpretation of a particular passage or series of passages around in the or series of passages around in the christodolphin community for say 50 christodolphin community for say 50 years years and a brother or sister publishes a and a brother or sister publishes a different viewpoint different viewpoint we should regard the different viewpoint with suspicion because it's new with suspicion because it's different as a possible valid alternative given a solid bible case as a possible better alternative given a solid bible case as a possible necessary replacement of a wrong necessary replacement of a wrong viewpoint viewpoint see you have to investigate it before see you have to investigate it before you make the decision you make the decision start getting kind of scary down here start getting kind of scary down here because because there's got to be some concerns going there's got to be some concerns going through people's mind through people's mind does this mean and i i was going to ask does this mean and i i was going to ask you for what your concerns are but you for what your concerns are but you'll probably tell me afterwards i you'll probably tell me afterwards i thought of at least five and i'll try thought of at least five and i'll try and do them here in the time allotted i thought there was only one truth that doesn't change and that truth's already doesn't change and that truth's already defined so how can there possibly be defined so how can there possibly be another viewpoint another viewpoint well the assumption behind that is well the assumption behind that is we in fact have the full complete we in fact have the full complete comprehensive truth comprehensive truth i've already argued that that can't be i've already argued that that can't be the case the case we might have a good approximation of it we might have a good approximation of it which i think is true which i think is true but but the question then becomes but the question then becomes but which group of christadophians which group of christadophians should you be listening to in this should you be listening to in this because we got several choices don't we you know even there's other like-minded groups that don't carry our label what groups that don't carry our label what about them about them it also assumes that truth to be it also assumes that truth to be understood understood as process as uh it's propositional as process as uh it's propositional truth that's uh that is there's a list truth that's uh that is there's a list and and i think we've shown that that's and and i think we've shown that that's not correct not correct um um truth is more than propositions and it's truth is more than propositions and it's not a matter of possession that someone not a matter of possession that someone has has so a second concern might be so a second concern might be you know is it is it conceivable that you know is it is it conceivable that we've been wrong for the last 50 years the assumption here is there's something terrible with being wrong terrible with being wrong really really no we no we we've been wrong about a lot of things we've been wrong about a lot of things over a lot of years i mean what's big over a lot of years i mean what's big news about being wrong news about being wrong ah but wrong about critical things well ah but wrong about critical things well what's defined as critical well first what's defined as critical well first principles doesn't the bible really principles doesn't the bible really provide a list provide a list well does it can you find a list of well does it can you find a list of first principles in the bible first principles in the bible we we've been trying to do that for we we've been trying to do that for years well suppose there even is a list years well suppose there even is a list that could be agreed upon by that could be agreed upon by christodians christodians talk about modern day miracles talk about modern day miracles but but now one of these is determined but but now one of these is determined to be wrong to be wrong all right all right being wrong on one point does that make being wrong on one point does that make everything else wrong does being wrong in one point make everything else suspect well wrong thinking produces wrong behavior you gotta agree with me there behavior you gotta agree with me there yes yes and it's important to contend for and it's important to contend for brightness brightness but but my experience is that right thinking my experience is that right thinking also allows wrong behavior also allows wrong behavior in me in me this is the perversity of human nature this is the perversity of human nature there's no particular shame in being there's no particular shame in being wrong well what about third question if entertaining the new the new viewpoint isn't being the new viewpoint isn't being isn't this being disloyal to the truth isn't this being disloyal to the truth and the assumption behind that would be and the assumption behind that would be that the traditional viewpoint is that the traditional viewpoint is equivalent to truth equivalent to truth and of course this shouldn't be and of course this shouldn't be axiomatic because axiomatic because tradition of the pharisees for example tradition of the pharisees for example was wrong was wrong but we could save ourselves but ours but we could save ourselves but ours ours is a crystaldelphian heritage ours is a crystaldelphian heritage it was bible-based but so was the it was bible-based but so was the pharisees pharisees but the christian of imposition we would but the christian of imposition we would argue is clearly provable i mean look at argue is clearly provable i mean look at all the texts we can do all the texts we can do but maybe there's a better way but maybe there's a better way the the new wine the the new wine but you're being disloyal to our but you're being disloyal to our pioneers pioneers but it might be a misplaced loyalty our but it might be a misplaced loyalty our lord isn't to them it's to christ and it lord isn't to them it's to christ and it might be a time to move on john the might be a time to move on john the baptist was a forerunner and then it was baptist was a forerunner and then it was time for his disciples to move on time for his disciples to move on but still the concern aren't you but still the concern aren't you introducing a seed of destruction to the introducing a seed of destruction to the ecclesia ecclesia well well it's a seed of growth it's a seed of growth i mean i mean the inception of the new testament the inception of the new testament church even of our own community was church even of our own community was that something was found to be wrong that something was found to be wrong and it started again so the point is and it started again so the point is that a new viewpoint isn't inherently a that a new viewpoint isn't inherently a bad thing you need to evaluate it i'll skip one other concern here uh the last one if every point of doctrine is last one if every point of doctrine is up for grabs will we be repeatedly up for grabs will we be repeatedly shaking our very foundations and that's shaking our very foundations and that's obviously destructive obviously destructive and disruptive and disruptive and i agree if everything is up for and i agree if everything is up for grabs then this isn't a good pursuit but grabs then this isn't a good pursuit but that's not the case we've got a that's not the case we've got a foundation not everything is up for foundation not everything is up for grabs it's the new viewpoint and how it grabs it's the new viewpoint and how it fits or doesn't fit we will have seen in the beginnings of this yesterday this yesterday and certainly from our own understanding and certainly from our own understanding that when jesus presents himself as that when jesus presents himself as truth truth he definitely did disrupt the status quo he definitely did disrupt the status quo of the pharisees and sadducees and did of the pharisees and sadducees and did destroy their position in the community destroy their position in the community and jesus was the source and cause of and jesus was the source and cause of contention and families since the issue contention and families since the issue came down to truth versus came down to truth versus whatever else and the point is encounter whatever else and the point is encounter with truth does create such upsets with truth does create such upsets but but if our foundation is sure if our foundation is sure as it is in jesus the bible and the rock as it is in jesus the bible and the rock god god then we have nothing to fear

Transcript

before i [Music] [Music] formally begin i'd like to formally begin i'd like to share with you some things that have share with you some things that have been shared with me been shared with me first being first being todd treadway todd treadway after me being somewhat unkind to him after me being somewhat unkind to him yesterday was very kind to me and came yesterday was very kind to me and came out and made a good suggestion out and made a good suggestion about whether or not we should fear our about whether or not we should fear our foundations even being investigated that foundations even being investigated that he said he said well norman look at your bible and we well norman look at your bible and we looked at looked at haggai as the reference and then in haggai as the reference and then in hebrews chapter 12 where it's cited hebrews chapter 12 where it's cited and verse and verse 27 27 is an interpretation on the quotation is an interpretation on the quotation from haggai where the very earth is from haggai where the very earth is shaken by the lord god shaken by the lord god and it says this phrase and it says this phrase yet once more yet once more indicates the removal of what is shaken indicates the removal of what is shaken as of what has been made as of what has been made in order that what cannot be shaken may in order that what cannot be shaken may remain remain therefore let us be grateful for therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken shaken and let us offer to god acceptable and let us offer to god acceptable worship with reverence and awe and i worship with reverence and awe and i believe his point was there's no fear of looking or investigating or investigating or our foundations being shaken because our foundations being shaken because there there build on the rock of god so even if some build on the rock of god so even if some would say well let's even go and look at would say well let's even go and look at the foundation again the foundation again there's no fear of it being overturned now the second has to do with this this two-page handout that's got two-page handout that's got the elements of logic it's out of a the elements of logic it's out of a textbook that i had when i was in textbook that i had when i was in college college and as you can see from the and as you can see from the greek on here that it was probably greek on here that it was probably taught in greek two but taught in greek two but um all these fancy names for example um all these fancy names for example this uh petition principy this uh petition principy my english pronunciation is far from my english pronunciation is far from good i'm sure good i'm sure begging the question we would call it begging the question we would call it reasoning in a circle and there's a good reasoning in a circle and there's a good example of that on page two example of that on page two very evident now some of the other very evident now some of the other things on the front sheet that said things on the front sheet that said non-sequitur that's a fancy way of non-sequitur that's a fancy way of saying it doesn't follow saying it doesn't follow it isn't necessarily true and they got a it isn't necessarily true and they got a whole bunch of latin names down there whole bunch of latin names down there one of them one of them is is in english the argument from authority in english the argument from authority that is that is because i have a function a title a because i have a function a title a status what i say must be true status what i say must be true and that's a fallacy it doesn't matter and that's a fallacy it doesn't matter who says it it is the evidence for what who says it it is the evidence for what is said is said i gave you this to just show you some of i gave you this to just show you some of the things that do exist in terms of the things that do exist in terms of fallacies and you would be surprised fallacies and you would be surprised at how at how much of this fallacious thinking much of this fallacious thinking is in print today is in print today and is in conversation today and our own and is in conversation today and our own community is affected by it community is affected by it now the third now the third thing was thing was without giving credit to who suggested i without giving credit to who suggested i do this but credit to the artwork which do this but credit to the artwork which is heidi oppens is heidi oppens you can see this very clear you can see this very clear simplistic diagram before you simplistic diagram before you [Music] [Music] because because it really only has it really only has circles circles and squares and triangles and squares and triangles and if you know that pattern that key to and if you know that pattern that key to get into it it's just a matter of get into it it's just a matter of breaking this down it's just a matter of breaking this down it's just a matter of layering these things layering these things but you can pull them off but you can pull them off maybe the different colors associated maybe the different colors associated and what appears to be and what appears to be incomprehensible or complex incomprehensible or complex given a certain amount of patience given a certain amount of patience and the right keys and the right keys you can go in you can go in and unravel it or it makes sense and and unravel it or it makes sense and certainly that's true in scripture you certainly that's true in scripture you can start at one point and you start can start at one point and you start pulling it out you can understand that pulling it out you can understand that point point oh it's connected this one so you put oh it's connected this one so you put out i can understand that point and you out i can understand that point and you pull it out a little bit more pull it out a little bit more and pretty soon you start seeing the and pretty soon you start seeing the pattern but you're understanding all pattern but you're understanding all these things all the parts of these things all the parts of the big puzzle the little puzzles that the big puzzle the little puzzles that paul was telling us yesterday so those are just some preliminary things that i thought i'd share with you things that i thought i'd share with you because we didn't have a tank to discuss because we didn't have a tank to discuss matters yesterday but those were some matters yesterday but those were some feedback now this is the general topic today truth confronts for some of you who i know haven't been here because you took some haven't been here because you took some literature let me literature let me just ever so briefly review how we got just ever so briefly review how we got to this class three the first class discussed a very important characteristic of god's truth important characteristic of god's truth namely it invites investigation namely it invites investigation the bible the lord jesus christ and god the bible the lord jesus christ and god himself encourage examination himself encourage examination ask seek knock ask seek knock it will be given it will be given you will find you will find it will be opened it will be opened god's truth is based on the solid god's truth is based on the solid evidence of the bible evidence of the bible is laid on the rock foundation of christ is laid on the rock foundation of christ and is built on the certainty of the one and is built on the certainty of the one and only faithful god and only faithful god these three are reliable unchanging and these three are reliable unchanging and sure sure to believe this to believe this and to know the only true god and jesus and to know the only true god and jesus christ whom god has sent christ whom god has sent is eternal life the second class which is yesterday began to investigate which is yesterday began to investigate the bible teaching concerning the the bible teaching concerning the promises of god promises of god we had them written up there we had them written up there and the inquiry led to wider and the inquiry led to wider understanding and better appreciation of understanding and better appreciation of well-established first principles well-established first principles and this pursuit of ours followed a and this pursuit of ours followed a standard christodophian practice of standard christodophian practice of fearlessly looking at a number of fearlessly looking at a number of relevant questions relevant questions in light of scripture in light of scripture truth has no fear of investigation and truth has no fear of investigation and has many wonderful secrets to reveal to has many wonderful secrets to reveal to those who ask those who ask seek and knock seek and knock and if you recall our class ended by and if you recall our class ended by considering considering some of the possible concerns some of the possible concerns and objections to re-examining our and objections to re-examining our traditional understanding of bible truth i believe that the christian dolphin community has a the christian dolphin community has a good working understanding of bible good working understanding of bible truth truth and i believe that we try to practice it and i believe that we try to practice it and this is cause for great rejoicing and this is cause for great rejoicing and thanksgiving we and thanksgiving we cited a passage in cited a passage in 2nd john yesterday just let me read one 2nd john yesterday just let me read one from third john today that two is is from third john today that two is is relevant the elder to the beloved gaius whom i love in truth love in truth beloved i pray that all may go well with beloved i pray that all may go well with you and that you may be well in health i you and that you may be well in health i know that as well with your soul know that as well with your soul for i greatly rejoice when some of the for i greatly rejoice when some of the brethren arrived and testify to the brethren arrived and testify to the truth of your life as indeed you do truth of your life as indeed you do follow the truth follow the truth no greater joy can i have than this no greater joy can i have than this to hear to hear that my children that my children follow the truth follow the truth [Music] [Music] and so we use that term in that way and and so we use that term in that way and it is cause for great rejoicing when we it is cause for great rejoicing when we have a baptism when we see that have a baptism when we see that someone's overcome a great problem in someone's overcome a great problem in their life when we see cooperative their life when we see cooperative things bear fruit this is cause for things bear fruit this is cause for great rejoicing and our respective great rejoicing and our respective communities have great strength in these communities have great strength in these areas areas so it is not at all my intention if it so it is not at all my intention if it has has at all come across that way to say at all come across that way to say look at all that's wrong with our look at all that's wrong with our community and look at all that's wrong community and look at all that's wrong with our understanding that's not my with our understanding that's not my intention intention and it certainly wouldn't be something and it certainly wouldn't be something that one would want to do from the that one would want to do from the platform in any case but truth invites investigation invites investigation [Music] [Music] and sometimes we're confronted with hard and sometimes we're confronted with hard sayings as our exhorter on sunday sayings as our exhorter on sunday morning and speakers in various times morning and speakers in various times and classes have said and classes have said wow if it means this what manner of wow if it means this what manner of people ought we to be in terms of people ought we to be in terms of holiness and so on holiness and so on so please accept that that is my motive so please accept that that is my motive in tackling some of these in tackling some of these issues issues truth confronts truth confronts it's another important characteristic of it's another important characteristic of god's truth god's truth by its very nature truth by its very nature truth is antagonistic against is antagonistic against non-truth non-truth [Music] [Music] what is non-truth well i suggest it's what is non-truth well i suggest it's all that is in the world the works of the flesh for those who are outside in the definitions of that of course from the first john 2 16 the lust of the from the first john 2 16 the lust of the flesh the lust of the eyes the pride of flesh the lust of the eyes the pride of life life general statements galatians 5 19-21 general statements galatians 5 19-21 works of the flesh immorality impurity works of the flesh immorality impurity licentiousness idolatry licentiousness idolatry sorcery enmity strife sorcery enmity strife jealousy jealousy anger anger selfishness dissension selfishness dissension party spirit party spirit envy envy drunkenness carousing and the like drunkenness carousing and the like [Music] [Music] those outside the cowardly the faithless the polluted murderers fornicators dogs that is murderers fornicators dogs that is sodomites sodomites sorcerers idolaters all liars sorcerers idolaters all liars that is those who love and practice that is those who love and practice falsehood you know where that last falsehood you know where that last reference was from reference was from [Music] [Music] from the book of revelation from the book of revelation [Music] [Music] and that's where it talks about those and that's where it talks about those being outside being outside in fact the first in fact the first phrase that i remember that defines phrase that i remember that defines those who are quote outside those who are quote outside comes comes in mark chapter 4 verse 11 you might in mark chapter 4 verse 11 you might want to look at this want to look at this because it's something that jesus says because it's something that jesus says it's about those who hadn't sought to it's about those who hadn't sought to follow him follow him [Music] [Music] and it's in verse 11 mark 4 and it's in verse 11 mark 4 he said to them to you has been given he said to them to you has been given the secret of the kingdom of god the secret of the kingdom of god but for those but for those outside outside everything is in parables everything is in parables so that they may indeed see but not so that they may indeed see but not perceive perceive and may indeed hear but not understand and may indeed hear but not understand unless they should turn again and so be unless they should turn again and so be forgiven forgiven now that to me now that to me comes across as a comes across as a pretty pretty face slapping statement face slapping statement you mean there's someone outside who's you mean there's someone outside who's someone who's not in the way of someone who's not in the way of salvation that you can tell someone that salvation that you can tell someone that they're on the way to perdition they're on the way to perdition and this is a verse that would indicate and this is a verse that would indicate that that and it's our their abolition it isn't and it's our their abolition it isn't that you that you allocate them to to that fate allocate them to to that fate so so this is important because to be a this is important because to be a non-inquirer of truth non-inquirer of truth means you won't perceive the secrets of means you won't perceive the secrets of the kingdom the kingdom and so be saved so non-truth i suggest is the practice of contrary people of contrary people defined by jesus in another place as defined by jesus in another place as he that is not with me he that is not with me is against me he says that in matthew 12 is against me he says that in matthew 12 30 and luke 11 23 30 and luke 11 23 now this whole list that it gave you now this whole list that it gave you about what non-truth is about what non-truth is may have surprised you in the sense that may have surprised you in the sense that we ordinarily look at truth we ordinarily look at truth in an abstract way as here's truth in an abstract way as here's truth and here's air and falsehood and here's air and falsehood well even scripture says well even scripture says here's truth as opposed to those who here's truth as opposed to those who practice practice falsehood so it's not just an idea one falsehood so it's not just an idea one against the other against the other obviously truth is in opposition to much obviously truth is in opposition to much much more than abstracts much more than abstracts i would say that truth is not a matter i would say that truth is not a matter of accuracy per se of accuracy per se but of lifestyle but of lifestyle and consistency and consistency with the calling of the gospel with the calling of the gospel if you were to read colossians chapter 1 if you were to read colossians chapter 1 5-6 and verse 10 5-6 and verse 10 ephesians 4 verse 1 ephesians 4 verse 1 and first thessalonians 2 12. i just and first thessalonians 2 12. i just cite them for the tape cite them for the tape all of these say all of these say to live a life worthy of your calling to live a life worthy of your calling according to the gospel of truth according to the gospel of truth or words to that effect or words to that effect it is important to be consistent with it is important to be consistent with what we believe now these other things like those who are outside and are outside and making things so black and white that's making things so black and white that's wrong behavior kind of is this is uncomfortable and this idea of contention this idea of contention leads to controversy and that also at leads to controversy and that also at best is unpleasant and often is greatly best is unpleasant and often is greatly upsetting but we've already found in the second class in paul's class in the second class in paul's class that christ presents himself that christ presents himself deliberately as a controversialist deliberately as a controversialist he deliberately confronted people with he deliberately confronted people with the fact of himself and forced them to the fact of himself and forced them to consider the situation and their consider the situation and their relationship with him relationship with him and every disciple is faced with the and every disciple is faced with the same challenge same challenge and we in turn be disciples and we in turn be disciples are obliged to are obliged to give the same challenge to those around give the same challenge to those around us to preach the challenge of christ to us to preach the challenge of christ to the world the world the obligation very plainly said the obligation very plainly said contend contend earnestly says the authorized version earnestly says the authorized version for the faith that was once for all for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints delivered to the saints now that interestingly enough is in a now that interestingly enough is in a context of contending for it in the context of contending for it in the ecclesial world as opposed to ecclesial world as opposed to those who weren't those who weren't in the euclesia in the euclesia now what this contention means and how now what this contention means and how it should be conducted it should be conducted i'll talk i'll talk about today but probably more about it about today but probably more about it tomorrow tomorrow for right now i would like you to pick for right now i would like you to pick up the handout up the handout that i've initially given you that i've initially given you it should read on the front side of it it should read on the front side of it truth invites investigation answers of truth invites investigation answers of jesus jesus what this is is a copy out of the bible what this is is a copy out of the bible of chapter 7 to 11 of john's gospel of chapter 7 to 11 of john's gospel and i've written some comments in the and i've written some comments in the text text and what i want to do just briefly is is and what i want to do just briefly is is kind of walk through some of these kind of walk through some of these chapters chapters and will direct your attention to the and will direct your attention to the notes at the bottom notes at the bottom what i'm wanting you to see is this what i'm wanting you to see is this largely is one event largely is one event one encounter with jesus up until at one encounter with jesus up until at least the end of chapter nine least the end of chapter nine and then in chapter 10 there is another and then in chapter 10 there is another add-on to that add-on to that from verse 22 on but up until that it's from verse 22 on but up until that it's all largely one event all largely one event and i think it's very instructive to see and i think it's very instructive to see how how jesus jesus meets meets opposition opposition and how he contends for truth how he and how he contends for truth how he doesn't back off doesn't back off but also how he but also how he is gentle in doing it is gentle in doing it now i won't go through every little note now i won't go through every little note that i have here because it will take that i have here because it will take too much time but i'm giving it to you too much time but i'm giving it to you as as it's kind of a mapping a good guideline it's kind of a mapping a good guideline that we can follow first of all his brothers in verse 4 and chapter 7 they said look chapter 7 they said look no man works in secret if he seeks to be no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly known openly and so you have a false accusation from and so you have a false accusation from his brothers and he answers and she his brothers and he answers and she gently says you go on ahead if you want gently says you go on ahead if you want and he comes up later on and he comes up later on verse 15 verse 15 jews marveled at these things saying how jews marveled at these things saying how is it that this is it that this man has learning when he has never man has learning when he has never studied studied and this is a false assumption that they and this is a false assumption that they have have they they don't don't go and ask them directly they just go and ask them directly they just decide that they're going to find out decide that they're going to find out the truth of the matter by talking the truth of the matter by talking amongst themselves amongst themselves this is one of a number of places and this is one of a number of places and i've got to know their 7 12 i've got to know their 7 12 32 35 to 36 and 40 to 41 they keep on 32 35 to 36 and 40 to 41 they keep on saying saying how is it that this can be right how is how is it that this can be right how is this true this true and they never went and asked him and they never went and asked him you'd think if they really wanted to you'd think if they really wanted to know know they go and ask them but they never did they go and ask them but they never did how strange how strange no no how typical how typical [Music] [Music] now some of them did ask when you get to now some of them did ask when you get to chapter 8 verse 13 they they come up and chapter 8 verse 13 they they come up and says says look you're bearing witness to yourself look you're bearing witness to yourself your testimony is not true your testimony is not true and verse 19 uh and verse 19 uh trouble reading my fine print there they trouble reading my fine print there they said to them where is your father and so said to them where is your father and so on verse 25 on verse 25 who are you they said who are you they said they finally came and asked him they finally came and asked him but it's plain from the context but it's plain from the context that they really didn't want to know these are defiant questions these are our attacks rather than the rather than the queries that they have queries that they have now jesus just picking up from from just picking up from from even this last even this last place place verse 23 [Music] [Music] in chapter eight just where the uh keep in chapter eight just where the uh keep on asking him and who are you before on asking him and who are you before that he says that he says you are from below you are from below i am from above you are this world i am i am from above you are this world i am not of this world i told you you would not of this world i told you you would die your sins for you will die in your die your sins for you will die in your sins unless you believe that i am he and sins unless you believe that i am he and they said to them who are you they said to them who are you jesus said to them jesus said to them even what i've told you from the even what i've told you from the beginning beginning i have much to say about you and much to i have much to say about you and much to judge but he who sent me is true and judge but he who sent me is true and declare to the world what i have heard declare to the world what i have heard from them and i declare to the world from them and i declare to the world what i've heard from them what i've heard from them and so on and so on hear hear truth confronts non-truth the ignorance truth confronts non-truth the ignorance of his brothers early on the evil and of his brothers early on the evil and deceit and the prejudice and even the deceit and the prejudice and even the arrogance of these pharisees interestingly enough uh the notes here 7 18 38 and 8 14 show uh the notes here 7 18 38 and 8 14 show how truth comes out truth is in the word how truth comes out truth is in the word of god of god truth is god himself and this is the truth is god himself and this is the passage of course where jesus says if passage of course where jesus says if you if you continue in my word you will you if you continue in my word you will know the truth and the truth will make know the truth and the truth will make you free and the son will make you three you free and the son will make you three free that's the free that's the equations of truth equations of truth [Music] [Music] jesus also argues that his reasons from jesus also argues that his reasons from scripture if you look for example in scripture if you look for example in chapter 8 verse 17 chapter 8 verse 17 you can see the little arrows there you can see the little arrows there where he cites scriptures and there's where he cites scriptures and there's two places earlier on two places earlier on uh in 7 24 and 8 17 but uh in 7 24 and 8 17 but it says in your law it is written the it says in your law it is written the testimony of two men is true testimony of two men is true so he he appeals to so he he appeals to objective evidence objective evidence and to their sense of reasoning and to their sense of reasoning if they in fact if they in fact wanted to find these matters out now if you flip over the sheet in fact if you you do it the right way if you if you you do it the right way if you hold it like this hold it like this like this it's upright for yourself like this it's upright for yourself what i usually do i usually turn it this what i usually do i usually turn it this way and then i have to turn upside down way and then i have to turn upside down and it's very confusing so and it's very confusing so you look at it that way this you look at it that way this is the story of the man is the story of the man born blind born blind and the healing and this this is a and the healing and this this is a wonderful just wonderful story wonderful just wonderful story about how about how the ordinary man the ordinary man with his simple understanding with his simple understanding and very simple logic and very simple logic confuse confuse the learned authorities the learned authorities he devastates them he devastates them because he says something like this because he says something like this they come up they come up who healed you who healed you was jesus how can they possibly be you was jesus how can they possibly be you know and they're on top of jesus and he know and they're on top of jesus and he says says well well how could he have done it unless god was how could he have done it unless god was with him well we know that this man is a with him well we know that this man is a sinner and he doesn't follow our sinner and he doesn't follow our traditions he doesn't obey the law and traditions he doesn't obey the law and he said well you know he said well you know this this is a marvel this this is a marvel never since the beginning of time and never since the beginning of time and effect has this ever happened and a man effect has this ever happened and a man born blind has been healed and this has born blind has been healed and this has happened to me and now you see there's happened to me and now you see there's something wrong with the guy i mean that something wrong with the guy i mean that makes no sense makes no sense and they said and you would teach us get and they said and you would teach us get out you scum and they they kicked them out you scum and they they kicked them out of the synagogue right and you know out of the synagogue right and you know the story well the story well and there's it's just wonderful that the and there's it's just wonderful that the fallacies that are in here and and the fallacies that are in here and and the um um the argument from authority that they the argument from authority that they say well we know such and such is true say well we know such and such is true says the pharisees and they didn't know says the pharisees and they didn't know they didn't have a leg to stand on they didn't have a leg to stand on and they intimidated the parents they and they intimidated the parents they tried to intimidate this man but he tried to intimidate this man but he stood stood firm firm because he believed in because he believed in jesus jesus who hadn't seen yet physically with his who hadn't seen yet physically with his eyes eyes when he came back and there's that when he came back and there's that nice lesson you have seen him nice lesson you have seen him when he asked who i should believe in when he asked who i should believe in and by the time the chapter ends it's and by the time the chapter ends it's very clear very clear [Music] [Music] which people which people are right in the are right in the matter and it's evidently in the man matter and it's evidently in the man because because the faith that he has has borne fruit and the refusal the blatant refusal or the pharisees the pharisees to look fairly at the matter to look fairly at the matter means that their guilt remains means that their guilt remains so a blind man has his eyes opened so a blind man has his eyes opened and the men who claimed that their eyes and the men who claimed that their eyes were wide open were wide open were dreadfully blind were dreadfully blind [Music] [Music] simple logic simple logic by a simple person by a simple person reflects faith reflects faith prompts belief prompts belief and is rewarded it was for the glory of god says chapter nine it begins and this was bearing nine it begins and this was bearing fruit for god fruit for god and i think that's one measure of truth and i think that's one measure of truth then jesus says it in matthew 12 33 and then jesus says it in matthew 12 33 and it's also in colossians 1 10 it's also in colossians 1 10 you will know people by their fruits you will know people by their fruits that is how they believe in what the that is how they believe in what the outcome of their teaching is especially outcome of their teaching is especially in the lives of those who follow it truth cannot be a companion of the works of the flesh like party spirit of the flesh like party spirit enmity party spirit by the way you know enmity party spirit by the way you know isn't having a great party it isn't that isn't having a great party it isn't that uh that's probably more carousing it's uh that's probably more carousing it's being partial being partial only associating with a particular group only associating with a particular group the circumcision party in acts was like the circumcision party in acts was like that enmity anger dissension envy all those are characteristics the works all those are characteristics the works of the flesh are are found in this of the flesh are are found in this section in john in the section in john in the lives and in the statements and the lives and in the statements and the thinking of the pharisees thinking of the pharisees [Music] [Music] if you were to look for example in if you were to look for example in chapter 10 chapter 10 verse 33 verse 33 listen to this throughout the stone listen to this throughout the stone jesus jesus and they answer him we stone you for no and they answer him we stone you for no good work but for blasphemy because you good work but for blasphemy because you being a man make yourself god being a man make yourself god and jesus answered them is it not and jesus answered them is it not written in your law i said you are god's written in your law i said you are god's if you call them gods to whom the word if you call them gods to whom the word of god came and scripture cannot be of god came and scripture cannot be broken broken do you see of him whom the father do you see of him whom the father consecrated and sent to the world you consecrated and sent to the world you are blaspheming because i said are blaspheming because i said i am the son of god i am the son of god if i'm not doing the works of my father if i'm not doing the works of my father then do not believe me this is the then do not believe me this is the witness this is the fruit here's his witness this is the fruit here's his behavior behavior but if i do them but if i do them even though you do not believe in me even though you do not believe in me believe the works believe the works that you may know and understand that that you may know and understand that the father is in me and i am in the the father is in me and i am in the father so even though he's confronted them even though he's telling them they're still though he's telling them they're still their sins their sins even jesus wonderfully marvelously even jesus wonderfully marvelously he wants all men to be saved and come to he wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth a knowledge of the truth as his father does as his father does he makes this appeal he makes this appeal even even even if you can't stomach me even if you can't stomach me even if you can't stand what i'm even if you can't stand what i'm representing as a person representing as a person at least look at the obvious miracles at least look at the obvious miracles and let them convince you the rightness and worth of a teaching will be demonstrated sooner or later in will be demonstrated sooner or later in the life the life and associations of the proponent and associations of the proponent as i said in this case jesus and the man as i said in this case jesus and the man are obviously are obviously on the side of truth on the side of truth [Music] anyone who decides to take a stand for truth is truth is bound to encounter a certain amount of bound to encounter a certain amount of agitation agitation and simply because truth and simply because truth disrupts disrupts the status quo the status quo [Music] [Music] and it's interesting that the brethren and it's interesting that the brethren who claim to who claim to represent truth and that includes myself represent truth and that includes myself up here up here contend that the whole truth contend that the whole truth should be considered and that all the should be considered and that all the bible evidence should be weighed bible evidence should be weighed and and let us remember the bible warns against let us remember the bible warns against false teachers false teachers and those who cause dissentions among and those who cause dissentions among you and so on you and so on and and it's very easy to say all those people who are talking a viewpoint different from me viewpoint different from me because i'm talking about truth because i'm talking about truth are obviously the are obviously the ones the bible talked about as being the ones the bible talked about as being the false teachers false teachers i mean that logically follows doesn't it i mean that logically follows doesn't it no it does not no it does not that is a fallacy but this is evident this is a a very easy trap to fall into and it's especially easy to fall into when we come up against that problem when we come up against that problem that i introduced yesterday that i introduced yesterday and that is and that is what happens what happens when you have two brethren or two groups who claimed to have the truth who claimed to have good solid bible claimed to have good solid bible evidence and they got two positions evidence and they got two positions and they both cannot be true and they both cannot be true this is not a case where they could be this is not a case where they could be partly right partly wrong partly right partly wrong there might be a higher principle that there might be a higher principle that they both should acknowledge to resolve they both should acknowledge to resolve it but what do you do it but what do you do when you have this this head-on when you have this this head-on conflict conflict how do you figure out how do you figure out which is correct which is correct i've already suggested from this handout i've already suggested from this handout that one way is to that one way is to [Music] [Music] look at the fruit that's born that is look at the fruit that's born that is you need to have a little bit of time you need to have a little bit of time or you can evaluate the spirit or you can evaluate the spirit of the preacher or the contender because of the preacher or the contender because it should be gentle and patient and apt it should be gentle and patient and apt to teach and if there's correction to teach and if there's correction involved it should be with gentleness involved it should be with gentleness and so on but there's another way isn't there another way to figure out who's right in another way to figure out who's right in a matter a matter and you know it well and you know it well it's it's like this you pick up the book for like this you pick up the book for yourself yourself and you open it up and you look up the and you open it up and you look up the evidence and you say evidence and you say this one makes more sense than the other this one makes more sense than the other one one [Music] [Music] it's as simple as that it's as simple as that you gotta check it out for yourself you gotta check it out for yourself there's no magical answers in evaluating there's no magical answers in evaluating what's right and what's wrong what's right and what's wrong and you really shouldn't have someone and you really shouldn't have someone else try to tell you else try to tell you you need to determine it for yourself you need to determine it for yourself figure out who's got the better bible figure out who's got the better bible case case now now here is your time for participation here is your time for participation [Music] [Music] here's a time to deal with a real here's a time to deal with a real live live topic it's a practice in our community called called domestic missionary work domestic missionary work or domestic evangelism or domestic evangelism uh with the connotation that is pain uh with the connotation that is pain that is that is someone who goes someone who goes with the impeacher and they paid his with the impeacher and they paid his expenses now there has been some rather come out strongly against us rather come out strongly against us in these in these sites ii thessalonians sites ii thessalonians chapter 3 chapter 3 verses around verse 10 it says if anyone doesn't work don't let them eat eat and they interpret this to be directly and they interpret this to be directly against against this activity this activity [Music] okay uh just just to show you how strongly they feel on this it reads strongly they feel on this it reads we wish to notify the brotherhood of a we wish to notify the brotherhood of a very dangerous practice in which a few very dangerous practice in which a few creatures are now underneath creatures are now underneath the endeavor established domestic the endeavor established domestic evangelism evangelism this is how it works this is how it works my brother will volunteer to be a my brother will volunteer to be a full-time outreach evangelist he full-time outreach evangelist he features wishes involved with papers features wishes involved with papers room board and transportation room board and transportation this system is clearly a form of this system is clearly a form of organizational pain ministry and he organizational pain ministry and he cites sec second pillars thessalonians cites sec second pillars thessalonians at 10 to show that this should not be at 10 to show that this should not be practiced practiced so this form of pain ministry is not so this form of pain ministry is not only unscriptural but it is detrimental only unscriptural but it is detrimental to the spiritual warfare of ephesians to the spiritual warfare of ephesians well well so first of all it's wrong on the bible so first of all it's wrong on the bible grounds grounds secondly it's wrong because uh affects secondly it's wrong because uh affects others others in ecclesia that doesn't make him lazier in ecclesia that doesn't make him lazier and the last point it makes pain and the last point it makes pain ministry is one of the hallmarks of the ministry is one of the hallmarks of the heart system and her daughters heart system and her daughters that is other churches that is other churches [Music] now [Music] [Music] on this side on this side i'm going to ask you to help me develop i'm going to ask you to help me develop for a few minutes you have to do thank for a few minutes you have to do thank you you there is justification for this now i'm going to help you a little bit with this exercise because strong word you know you heard the word i i i debated whether i read it or not but i i debated whether i read it or not but i thought i would never speak herself thought i would never speak herself if this is true we better stop this and he he said in scripture so and he he said in scripture so where would be the obvious place to walk where would be the obvious place to walk start looking at the sanded by the legs start looking at the sanded by the legs okay okay do you know the context of what's going do you know the context of what's going on in here what's paul saying in this on in here what's paul saying in this passage passage you can look it up i'm not expecting you can look it up i'm not expecting there's no commentary but there's no commentary but if anyone knows what's what what does if anyone knows what's what what does paul mean when he says if anyone doesn't paul mean when he says if anyone doesn't work work don't let them eat don't let them eat [Music] exactly exactly and if you could hear that just exactly and if you could hear that just i'll try to summarize you're talking i'll try to summarize you're talking about the the near duals guys who were about the the near duals guys who were sitting around on a chair all day and sitting around on a chair all day and doing nothing doing nothing they weren't working they were uh they weren't working they were uh sponging off the ecclesia sponging off the ecclesia uh sharing that were having things in uh sharing that were having things in common and so on as a person who common and so on as a person who literally wasn't doing any work making literally wasn't doing any work making no contribution no contribution [Music] [Music] and i believe that's the obvious context and i believe that's the obvious context so the first question is is that a reasonable relevant verse to cite to cite if you argue against this if you argue against this i mean is it even a relevant citation i would submit one other aspect look that we set an example for you that we did not need anyone spreading that we did not need anyone spreading that pain for us we kept warning you because pain for us we kept warning you because we might not be a partnership okay good we might not be a partnership okay good we should ask we should ask [Music] [Music] and he cites that as well and he cites that as well and that's that's fair now and that's that's fair now what was the example of all it was that what was the example of all it was that he worked so that he might not burden anyone just some of the time didn't he did paul ever get assistance from the did paul ever get assistance from the kitchen did anyone ever pay for his food kitchen did anyone ever pay for his food expenses and so on yes he did so this isn't a universal principle at so this isn't a universal principle at all all in fact if you look it up you will find in fact if you look it up you will find that paul says yes that paul says yes i have set an example this that you i have set an example this that you should labor day and night should labor day and night but but and if you look i believe it's in and if you look i believe it's in corinthians that he's arguing about this corinthians that he's arguing about this [Music] [Music] he says he says and it's in first corinthians chapter 9 and it's in first corinthians chapter 9 verse 9 which is cited by this there is verse 9 which is cited by this there is a a bible precedent a a bible precedent that that it's a preacher's right to expect it's a preacher's right to expect material support paul however said that he did not do it for a specific reason it was his boast for a specific reason it was his boast that he could be different that he could be different so that he could undermine the claim of so that he could undermine the claim of false apostles but a point to consider in all this it talks about those who labor talks about those who labor in the lord and we don't have time to in the lord and we don't have time to look it up but in look it up but in well i this is important enough we well i this is important enough we should do first timothy should do first timothy chapter chapter 5 verse 17 and 18. it says let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor considered worthy of double honor especially those who labor in preaching especially those who labor in preaching and teaching and teaching or the scripture says you shall not or the scripture says you shall not muzzle an ox when the destroying of muzzle an ox when the destroying of grain and grain and the laborer deserves his wages the laborer deserves his wages so those who labor in preaching and so those who labor in preaching and teaching that is working in the lord teaching that is working in the lord that is that is so it's not talking about people who so it's not talking about people who don't work these people are working don't work these people are working and it's for the lord which is even a and it's for the lord which is even a higher thing it's like sitting at the higher thing it's like sitting at the feet of jesus only they're trying to feet of jesus only they're trying to help someone else it says they deserve help someone else it says they deserve their wages their wages and in first timothy and in first timothy chapter five prime minister right there it was in first thessalonians 5 i meant first thessalonians 5 i meant verse 12. verse 12. this too is in the context of verse 14 this too is in the context of verse 14 we exhort you brethren admonish the idol we exhort you brethren admonish the idol which he does in his second letter but which he does in his second letter but verse 12 says in first thessalonians 5 verse 12 says in first thessalonians 5 but we beseech you brethren to respect but we beseech you brethren to respect those who labor among you and are over those who labor among you and are over you in the lord and admonish you and then first corinthians chapter 6 verse 16 only that's not going to be it it's going to be chapter 8 it's going to be chapter 8 verse 16 verse 16 uh for if i preach the gospel gives me uh for if i preach the gospel gives me no ground for boasting for necessities no ground for boasting for necessities laid upon me laid upon me oh to me if i do not preach the the oh to me if i do not preach the the gospel gospel but he goes on to say oh i'm in chapter nine i have misled you i i'm in chapter nine i have misled you i apologize for this apologize for this first corinthians chapter 9 and it's first corinthians chapter 9 and it's verse 14 verse 14 in the same way the lord commanded that in the same way the lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel should get their living by the gospel seems to me that that's pretty clear seems to me that that's pretty clear this is by paul so when you start this is by paul so when you start looking up all the places where paul looking up all the places where paul talks about talks about it would seem it would seem that this is a that this is a legitimate practice legitimate practice now i think that this is well taken now i think that this is well taken if it's going to make everybody else if it's going to make everybody else lazy lazy then this is not a good thing then this is not a good thing i believe the experience has been in i believe the experience has been in every case every case this activity is actually this activity is actually fueled others to get involved does that make it wrong they read their bibles too they read their bibles too this is a classic fallacy classic fallacy and it should be recognized and it should be recognized however however if other people do it and if that is if other people do it and if that is determined to be wrong determined to be wrong then we shouldn't do it then we shouldn't do it that's the reason to reject it that's the reason to reject it so so you've obviously seen which side i've you've obviously seen which side i've come on but you want to look at come on but you want to look at the testimony and i thank you jane for the testimony and i thank you jane for adding that other one here that's that's adding that other one here that's that's true i didn't want to try and true i didn't want to try and shortchange this it's pretty easy to set shortchange this it's pretty easy to set up a straw man and destroy it up a straw man and destroy it but uh but uh here is a publicized imprint strong here is a publicized imprint strong warning against activity warning against activity which i think from some of the classes which i think from some of the classes we've had today that says we've had today that says we need to preach and this is a way of we need to preach and this is a way of preaching preaching it it strikes me as being something to uh strikes me as being something to uh confront and say i don't think that is confront and say i don't think that is correct correct have you thought of calling in have you thought of calling in philippians 4 philippians 4 which links up to the which links up to the situation situation uh i haven't but i will cite them again uh i haven't but i will cite them again philippians chapter 4 verses philippians chapter 4 verses 10 to 17. it is a is a linkage 10 to 17. it is a is a linkage uh yeah i there are some other places uh yeah i there are some other places too where he says plainly that he too where he says plainly that he received received um if you looked at my notes i have uh um if you looked at my notes i have uh philippians 4 15 to 18 philippians 4 15 to 18 and and i just hadn't cited that but that's good i just hadn't cited that but that's good he's only too glad to have his needs he's only too glad to have his needs supplied by others thank you brother that's right for even in thessalonica you sent me for even in thessalonica you sent me help help people go outside though good point i people go outside though good point i had missed that and that really makes uh had missed that and that really makes uh uh uh a torpedo doesn't it a torpedo doesn't it it's in philippines chapter 4 verse 16 it's in philippines chapter 4 verse 16 where paul says even in thessalonica you where paul says even in thessalonica you sent help once and again sent help once and again so if his practice was in thessalonica so if his practice was in thessalonica to to not receive any help but only to to not receive any help but only labor with your hands this verse says labor with your hands this verse says but that isn't what he was practicing but that isn't what he was practicing therefore you must understand his therefore you must understand his admonition to the thessalonians as admonition to the thessalonians as those who are being lazy those who are being lazy not working at all and not in reference not working at all and not in reference to those who are laboring to preach the to those who are laboring to preach the word go ahead john i'm going to ruin my time frame today post scripture like anyhow we should also be careful of what we're accusing also be careful of what we're accusing because because paul is accusing people of being paul is accusing people of being lazy lazy uh near uh near some of your illusion eyelids and her some of your illusion eyelids and her busy body is not doing any work busy body is not doing any work that's whose attention and what we're that's whose attention and what we're doing is calling what you would say is a doing is calling what you would say is a domestic missionary a lazy busy body domestic missionary a lazy busy body not doing any work yeah several times yeah i think it's a false accusation and yeah i think it's a false accusation and needs to be recognized for what it is needs to be recognized for what it is all right let me uh hasten here i need a all right let me uh hasten here i need a couple of couple of part two part two so you have this in your hand what i hope that you saw here is that so we so we we who are ordinary people i think we who are ordinary people i think uh uh can in fact investigate these matters can in fact investigate these matters for ourselves for ourselves sometimes we're intimidated by by things sometimes we're intimidated by by things in prince or by learned brethren in prince or by learned brethren i know my wife tells me that i i know my wife tells me that i intimidate people and and and we need to look hard at this business because we are just ordinary business because we are just ordinary people scripture tells us that people scripture tells us that just because it's in print or because a just because it's in print or because a widely respected brother has said it or widely respected brother has said it or because an elder in your ephesia has because an elder in your ephesia has pronounced a verdict that doesn't make pronounced a verdict that doesn't make it right it right now let me qualify that however now let me qualify that however there's no reason to find fault with there's no reason to find fault with everything that's in print just because everything that's in print just because you want to scrutinize it you want to scrutinize it and respect is due to some people and respect is due to some people because of past service and performance because of past service and performance and it's likely that they are in fact and it's likely that they are in fact correct in the matter correct in the matter now we just read the passages from first now we just read the passages from first timothy five that would indicate that timothy five that would indicate that and the younger are urged to submit to and the younger are urged to submit to the elders the elders but as elders who rule well but as elders who rule well if they're not ruling well if they're not ruling well that becomes a different issue that becomes a different issue so i'm not advocating a criticism so i'm not advocating a criticism syndrome find fault with everything but syndrome find fault with everything but rather as far as the rightness of a rather as far as the rightness of a position is concerned position is concerned no one's more learned than this than no one's more learned than this than anybody else it's a fallacy now in order to help you in that area and i hope it is about this second and i hope it is about this second handout handout it's got two sides look at the side that it's got two sides look at the side that has 12 points on a truth invites has 12 points on a truth invites investigation investigation now i was hoping to be able to read now i was hoping to be able to read through all of these points and try to through all of these points and try to have a comment on them have a comment on them but i can't in terms of time so let me but i can't in terms of time so let me just hit some of the high points number just hit some of the high points number one is by far the most important i one is by far the most important i believe you need to pray to god for believe you need to pray to god for wisdom to accept his word wisdom to accept his word as well as to understand it as well as to understand it it's one thing to understand it but you it's one thing to understand it but you want it want it to be accepted in your life so we'll to be accepted in your life so we'll begin to bear fruit begin to bear fruit you need to read it carefully for you need to read it carefully for yourself point three yourself point three allow the text to explain itself point allow the text to explain itself point four four and use simple clear passages as an aid and use simple clear passages as an aid to unraveling the meaning of less clear to unraveling the meaning of less clear or more complex passages that's our or more complex passages that's our illustration there illustration there check out the cross references we just check out the cross references we just did that with the philippians 4 1. did that with the philippians 4 1. figure out what scripture meant to the figure out what scripture meant to the initial readers initial readers what it meant then and see if it can what it meant then and see if it can apply to ourselves apply to ourselves we need to be consistent we need to be consistent with other known information with other known information we can consult with other writings books we can consult with other writings books talk amongst ourselves and we have some talk amongst ourselves and we have some here today here today and again points 11 12 realize that even and again points 11 12 realize that even the study now the discovery here is a the study now the discovery here is a means to an end it's not an end in means to an end it's not an end in itself it's meant to lead you itself it's meant to lead you to a life worthy of the lord and to bear to a life worthy of the lord and to bear fruit for his glory and those are fruit for his glory and those are relevant passages down there relevant passages down there now we have some what i consider now we have some what i consider investigation investigation type books available in our community type books available in our community and i've cited them down there and i've cited them down there from exploring the bible by brother from exploring the bible by brother whittaker whittaker [Music] [Music] a biblical approach revelation study a a biblical approach revelation study a couple of brother norris is couple of brother norris is understanding the bible i have a mistake understanding the bible i have a mistake here here i've attributed him the name about every i've attributed him the name about every name as a book it's wrong it's what is name as a book it's wrong it's what is his name his name apocalypse for every man is is an apocalypse for every man is is an interesting one too in the sense that interesting one too in the sense that one of his contentions and he can one of his contentions and he can certainly confirm this if you want is certainly confirm this if you want is everybody has got a good everybody has got a good opportunity to understand it for opportunity to understand it for themselves it isn't a book limited to themselves it isn't a book limited to just a few learned people just a few learned people and brother alan hayward's book is and brother alan hayward's book is particularly helpful particularly helpful god's truth good supportive evidence god's truth good supportive evidence there for it god is there for it god is his latest one creation and evolution his latest one creation and evolution the facts and the fallacies i'll talk a the facts and the fallacies i'll talk a bit more about that later but he in bit more about that later but he in writing that burst all kinds of wrong writing that burst all kinds of wrong notions that norman fidel had notions that norman fidel had a very disruptive book a very disruptive book he set me straight on a number of he set me straight on a number of matters that's not a pleasant experience matters that's not a pleasant experience let me tell you let me tell you flip flip over the sheet flip flip over the sheet [Applause] [Applause] some extracts from a little booklet of a some extracts from a little booklet of a person that i know well just let me read one of the paragraphs that's cited here one of the paragraphs that's cited here because it's about john thomas and his because it's about john thomas and his rediscovery of bible truth rediscovery of bible truth he was a man who was not afraid to he was a man who was not afraid to pursue truth regardless of personal cost john thomas was a pioneer was not inspired but he approached his was not inspired but he approached his bible with a teachable mind bible with a teachable mind he was not divinely appointed but he he was not divinely appointed but he often experienced the hand of providence often experienced the hand of providence in his life in his life he was not a genius or a superman but he was not a genius or a superman but thomas utilized what talents and stamina thomas utilized what talents and stamina he possessed in pursuing and working for he possessed in pursuing and working for what he felt was god's truth what he felt was god's truth no one no one can have a higher or more noble quest can have a higher or more noble quest no one can have a more demanding or no one can have a more demanding or satisfying toil satisfying toil the person who so searches and so works the person who so searches and so works for god will have his reward for god will have his reward both in this life both in this life [Music] [Music] and in the life to come the work and spirit of this man is greatly to be prized greatly to be prized however i think that some brethren in however i think that some brethren in our community have our community have missed the point when they assert that missed the point when they assert that we are no longer a community of truth we are no longer a community of truth seekers seekers like brother thomas like brother thomas but of truth keepers that is he it all but of truth keepers that is he it all and we have yet to maintain it and we have yet to maintain it now there is a bible point it's in first now there is a bible point it's in first party second timothy 1 14 party second timothy 1 14 that we are to guard the truth that has that we are to guard the truth that has been entrusted to us been entrusted to us but i don't think that means defending but i don't think that means defending it in his purity it in his purity i believe it means in our own lives we i believe it means in our own lives we are to make it work rightly are to make it work rightly in the sense that we no longer have to in the sense that we no longer have to investigate bible teaching for ourselves investigate bible teaching for ourselves or that we should not question the or that we should not question the validity of pioneer works validity of pioneer works this viewpoint is quite wrong and is this viewpoint is quite wrong and is quite wrong for two reasons it has a quite wrong for two reasons it has a misplaced sense of loyalty to those men misplaced sense of loyalty to those men certainly john thomas certainly john thomas he did not at all approach his he did not at all approach his investigation that way and the last investigation that way and the last thing i believe he would have imagined thing i believe he would have imagined is a group of people who took what he is a group of people who took what he had and decided to squat on it and do had and decided to squat on it and do nothing more nothing more i can't imagine him doing that i can't imagine him doing that um um that's like trying to protect their that's like trying to protect their investment by burying it in the ground investment by burying it in the ground and we know that that doesn't work and we know that that doesn't work uh what we need to do here or the second uh what we need to do here or the second reason that i have is it i think it reason that i have is it i think it flies in the face of plain bible flies in the face of plain bible evidence you know truth invites evidence you know truth invites investigation it demands growth in the investigation it demands growth in the disciple it confronts the status quo disciple it confronts the status quo and it doesn't mean again that what we and it doesn't mean again that what we we formally believed or inherited is we formally believed or inherited is wrong it just means that there may be wrong it just means that there may be better better interpretations or explanations because interpretations or explanations because we have more we have more information available information available brother thomas brother thomas did exactly the right thing he pursued did exactly the right thing he pursued his investigation and used all the his investigation and used all the available evidence but he was wrong in some matters especially the return of christ especially the return of christ how do i know that because christ hasn't how do i know that because christ hasn't come back yet that's how i know he was come back yet that's how i know he was wrong wrong and submitted he was wrong and submitted he was wrong but am i am i trying to grind him in the but am i am i trying to grind him in the ground no ground no he made a mistake he made a mistake brethren make mistakes brethren make mistakes i make mistakes you make mistakes i make mistakes you make mistakes we'd be perfect people if we didn't make we'd be perfect people if we didn't make mistakes mistakes it was just incomplete because we've got it was just incomplete because we've got more information today than he had more information today than he had so we must go on so we must go on we must realize we're shortchanging we must realize we're shortchanging ourselves if we don't incorporate new ourselves if we don't incorporate new and helpful information in our and helpful information in our understanding of scriptures in both our understanding of scriptures in both our personal life and in our prophetic personal life and in our prophetic outlook outlook you know women's place in society you know women's place in society changed a lot the arabs role in the changed a lot the arabs role in the middle east just to cite two things and middle east just to cite two things and it's not an abdication of past teaching it's not an abdication of past teaching this isn't like removing the ancient this isn't like removing the ancient landmarks it's a continual upbuilding on landmarks it's a continual upbuilding on a foundation and that foundation is a foundation and that foundation is christ not the righteous of men and if christ not the righteous of men and if we come across material that doesn't we come across material that doesn't enhance the the building enhance the the building then we throw it away if we come across then we throw it away if we come across material that does build upon it let's material that does build upon it let's keep it and incorporate it keep it and incorporate it our job is more than maintenance our job is more than maintenance our job is development our job is development realize there's a balance in scripture realize there's a balance in scripture you can find one verse that says judge you can find one verse that says judge not lest you be judged and judge among not lest you be judged and judge among yourselves yourselves don't answer a fool answer for you can don't answer a fool answer for you can find balances in scripture he that is find balances in scripture he that is not with me is against me he who is not not with me is against me he who is not against me is for me you know you need against me is for me you know you need to reconcile those those are apparent to reconcile those those are apparent inconsistencies but they're not inconsistencies but they're not there are some viewpoints that are not there are some viewpoints that are not mutually exclusive mutually exclusive to strengthen the things that remain to strengthen the things that remain is not mutually exclusive from go out is not mutually exclusive from go out and witness and let your light shine and witness and let your light shine both are necessary both are necessary both complement each other both complement each other and finally we must realize our and finally we must realize our obligation to be personally preparing obligation to be personally preparing for the coming king for the coming king if we're growing spiritually if we're growing spiritually it's inevitable that our thinking will it's inevitable that our thinking will mature mature and that means that our understanding and that means that our understanding will be constantly changing will be constantly changing and that means that our appreciation of and that means that our appreciation of god's truth will be constantly changing god's truth will be constantly changing and our preaching efforts will be and our preaching efforts will be adapted accordingly adapted accordingly to not be changing is a sign of to not be changing is a sign of stagnation stagnation deterioration and ultimately death deterioration and ultimately death we cannot depend upon the oil or someone we cannot depend upon the oil or someone else else we must individually grow an we must individually grow an understanding and grace understanding and grace in order to be prepared

Transcript

porterson pointed out to me just an excellent verse it's in second excellent verse it's in second corinthians 13 corinthians 13 verse 8. verse 8. when we're talking about contention and when we're talking about contention and controversy controversy paul writes paul writes and i won't deal with the context here and i won't deal with the context here for we cannot do anything against the for we cannot do anything against the truth truth but only for the truth but only for the truth it's akin to his writing to the it's akin to his writing to the philippians philippians chapter 1 15-18 where he says chapter 1 15-18 where he says i'm in jail and some are preaching i'm in jail and some are preaching christ to make me christ to make me uh afflicted uh afflicted and and they do it out of contention but they do it out of contention but whether it's at a contention or whether whether it's at a contention or whether it's at a good most of motives i rejoice it's at a good most of motives i rejoice because at least christ is being because at least christ is being preached concerning the issue of paid ministry one of the reasons i raised it is one of the reasons i raised it is because it was publicized it's been in because it was publicized it's been in print and it's a direct charge in our print and it's a direct charge in our community and i think it's a community and i think it's a responsibility responsibility for brethren to investigate such serious for brethren to investigate such serious charges charges in fact i've talked to some of the in fact i've talked to some of the people involved in it and i have in fact people involved in it and i have in fact corresponded with them so corresponded with them so i just wanted to alert you that it i just wanted to alert you that it wasn't setting something up just to wasn't setting something up just to attack attack [Music] [Music] one of the references i was making in it one of the references i was making in it i'd said first corinthians chapter 6 16 i'd said first corinthians chapter 6 16 it's actually first corinthians 16 16 it's actually first corinthians 16 16 you understand the embarrassment if you you understand the embarrassment if you find out what's in chapter 6 16. find out what's in chapter 6 16. basically what it says it was should we basically what it says it was should we support support such workers or laborers and the verse such workers or laborers and the verse reads reads i urge you to be subject to such men and i urge you to be subject to such men and to every fellow worker and laborer and to every fellow worker and laborer and it's in the context of giving the it's in the context of giving the contribution to the saints in jerusalem contribution to the saints in jerusalem so it's a monetary matter but also for so it's a monetary matter but also for timothy when he comes put him at ease timothy when he comes put him at ease among you for he's doing the work of the among you for he's doing the work of the lord as i am and i think putting him at lord as i am and i think putting him at ease doesn't necessarily make him feel ease doesn't necessarily make him feel comfortable in your conversation as it comfortable in your conversation as it is you want to put him up you want to is you want to put him up you want to take care of him the list of suggestions that i gave yesterday at least for yesterday at least for how to uh things to go about and how to uh things to go about and discovering your bible discovering your bible please take that as a please take that as a guideline not as a directive guideline not as a directive it's a list of suggestions to consider it's a list of suggestions to consider these aren't the step-by-step things to these aren't the step-by-step things to go through go through in fact i know some of you will have in fact i know some of you will have discovered discovered if you're planning to get the tapes if you're planning to get the tapes there is a lot of information on the there is a lot of information on the notes and you really need to have a copy notes and you really need to have a copy that and if anyone orders these tapes that and if anyone orders these tapes and doesn't have the notes and doesn't have the notes they can order them from wcf i think they can order them from wcf i think they're kind of important obviously i they're kind of important obviously i haven't taken the time to read through haven't taken the time to read through the points the points that's just supplemental information that's just supplemental information you won't necessarily have the totality you won't necessarily have the totality of things of things on the tape so yesterday we determined that truth confronts determined that truth confronts that is it challenges each person who that is it challenges each person who comes into contact with it comes into contact with it we know that the bible obviously we know that the bible obviously challenges the reader challenges the reader obey the word of the lord obey the word of the lord and jesus certainly challenges his and jesus certainly challenges his disciples disciples know if any man would come after me let know if any man would come after me let him take up his cross and follow me and god definitely challenges people in malachi put me to the test see if i in malachi put me to the test see if i will not open the windows of heaven for will not open the windows of heaven for you you yet in the challenge is the appeal to yet in the challenge is the appeal to investigate and thus investigate and thus truth invites investigation truth invites investigation and yesterday's class also and yesterday's class also began to discuss how you can determine began to discuss how you can determine the validity of a viewpoint the validity of a viewpoint by measuring it against your own bible by measuring it against your own bible understanding something that you can and understanding something that you can and should do should do today we'll build on that and discuss today we'll build on that and discuss specifically what i mean by validity specifically what i mean by validity and how to develop a valid argument and how to develop a valid argument using relevant bible evidence let me using relevant bible evidence let me give you some definitions give you some definitions argument argument a reason offered in proof for or against a reason offered in proof for or against a thing a thing from argue to prove by reasoning to from argue to prove by reasoning to discuss discuss to persuade by debate to persuade by debate valid valid sound or well grounded sound or well grounded capable being justified capable being justified [Music] [Music] evidence evidence that which makes clear to the vision that which makes clear to the vision obvious obvious ground for belief ground for belief testimony proof testimony proof information in a case information in a case attestation corroboration attestation corroboration relevant relevant bearing upon the case in hand pertinent now sometimes when you hear this word argument argument oh no they're a fight oh no they're a fight this is this is that fist the verbal fisticuffs here that fist the verbal fisticuffs here well well let me let me issue a preliminary caution here issue a preliminary caution here when we argue when we argue we shouldn't presume we shouldn't presume that because we are a say that because we are a say christadelphian christadelphian that we're right because we happen to that we're right because we happen to have that label or position have that label or position we found out from yesterday some of the we found out from yesterday some of the fallacies because you have a certain fallacies because you have a certain label or status that isn't what makes label or status that isn't what makes you right you right it's whether you can reduce it's whether you can reduce the best or the better the best or the better bible evidence bible evidence so you must be willing to demonstrate so you must be willing to demonstrate the correctness by developing and the correctness by developing and presenting valid bible evidence and be presenting valid bible evidence and be willing to defend your case by relevant willing to defend your case by relevant references and or examples now in argumentation there's a there's a plea i would make as well there's a plea i would make as well it's a plea for gentleness no paul is an it's a plea for gentleness no paul is an excellent example of this i think uh excellent example of this i think uh through the acts we find that he through the acts we find that he was arguing pleading debating for was arguing pleading debating for the sober truth the references there are the sober truth the references there are acts 17 acts 17 3 3 17 18 4 19 26 24 25 26 25 explains 17 18 4 19 26 24 25 26 25 explains peru's confronts peru's confronts and yet he wasn't hostile or abusive in and yet he wasn't hostile or abusive in any of these things when they had the any of these things when they had the big showdown and acts in ephesus big showdown and acts in ephesus he was exonerated he never brought any he was exonerated he never brought any thing upon any bad sayings against the thing upon any bad sayings against the uh diana the uh diana the the false goddess and the and the people the false goddess and the and the people itself and that's in acts 19 37 and 23 itself and that's in acts 19 37 and 23 29 29 so in spite of the hostility that paul so in spite of the hostility that paul encountered encountered he would write this and he writes it to he would write this and he writes it to timothy ii timothy you might want to timothy ii timothy you might want to look this up but i'll read it look this up but i'll read it verses 23 to 25 and i know it's been verses 23 to 25 and i know it's been referred to already in this bible school referred to already in this bible school have nothing to do with stupid senseless have nothing to do with stupid senseless controversies you know that they breed controversies you know that they breed quarrels and the lord's servant must not quarrels and the lord's servant must not be quarrelsome be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone but kindly to everyone an apt teacher an apt teacher forbearing that is being patient forbearing that is being patient correcting his opponents with gentleness correcting his opponents with gentleness god may perhaps grant that they will god may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth now repent and come to know the truth now this is important sometimes this is read this is important sometimes this is read as uh we're talking about opponents as uh we're talking about opponents who need to repent and come to knowledge who need to repent and come to knowledge of the truth therefore this must apply of the truth therefore this must apply to our conversations with people inside to our conversations with people inside the christodolphine community but that's the christodolphine community but that's not true not true the context of this is how timothy is the context of this is how timothy is dealing with the problems in the dealing with the problems in the ecclesia ecclesia so it certainly refers to our so it certainly refers to our [Music] [Music] presentation of our beliefs to people presentation of our beliefs to people outside in fact this is somewhat ironic outside in fact this is somewhat ironic you may have perceived this you may have perceived this but but for example we might have an individual for example we might have an individual come to our ecclesia and visit come to our ecclesia and visit and and we're kindly and we fall over and and we're kindly and we fall over them and welcome them and so on like them and welcome them and so on like that that but but if there's someone from another ecclesia if there's someone from another ecclesia or horror is another fellowship that or horror is another fellowship that comes and sits there comes and sits there you won't give them the time of day you won't give them the time of day pretend they're not even there pretend they're not even there cold cold hostile hostile and that's not right is it and that's not right is it this says we shouldn't be that way this says we shouldn't be that way certainly if they're wrong in whatever certainly if they're wrong in whatever state they are we are to state they are we are to because we're under an obligation here because we're under an obligation here behave this way towards them so finally behave this way towards them so finally in talking about argumentation an in talking about argumentation an exhortation for humility exhortation for humility you you and i when i say you i'm talking about and i when i say you i'm talking about myself here should be willing to myself here should be willing to acknowledge that the wholeness has not acknowledge that the wholeness has not been mastered which is a very fancy way been mastered which is a very fancy way of saying you don't know everything of saying you don't know everything and that a better understanding of a and that a better understanding of a subject is always possible subject is always possible now now i've got another handout i waited until a few side now and if i can get a couple of colors and if i can get a couple of colors what you want to do is look at the sign what you want to do is look at the sign that says ways of reaching a valid conclusion and although it might be really and although it might be really difficult for you difficult for you don't turn it over and look at the other don't turn it over and look at the other side this is an exercise in self-control [Music] what this page is are some things again this is not a are some things again this is not a comprehensive total list and you comprehensive total list and you shouldn't go away feeling ah now i've shouldn't go away feeling ah now i've got it down i know just follow these got it down i know just follow these steps and i never have to think about it steps and i never have to think about it again not so these are suggestions basically it's in two parts on this page the the first and i've got them itemized the the first and i've got them itemized from a to j from a to j these are these are examples of what i mean by evidence and examples of what i mean by evidence and argumentation argumentation and then the second part is i've tried and then the second part is i've tried to illustrate to illustrate what i mean by the foregoing what i mean by the foregoing and at the bottom i talk about some and at the bottom i talk about some approaches that i'll talk about in a approaches that i'll talk about in a moment explicit text which includes the terms or ideas under consideration or ideas under consideration an example i'm going to be using through an example i'm going to be using through all this is using the the serpent all this is using the the serpent and what i mean is when you look up the and what i mean is when you look up the verse in the argument it should use the verse in the argument it should use the term serpent in the verse term serpent in the verse that's explicit it's got the term that's explicit it's got the term in it in it b definitions given in the text itself b definitions given in the text itself or from the same author in a similar or from the same author in a similar context and all those points are true context and all those points are true an example for this that the serpent an example for this that the serpent being a literal but subtle creature says being a literal but subtle creature says so in genesis 3 so in genesis 3 symbolically the deceiver of the whole symbolically the deceiver of the whole world and that's explicitly given in world and that's explicitly given in revelation chapter 12. revelation chapter 12. now in dealing with this term devil it's now in dealing with this term devil it's used as a label used as a label described as the accuser of our brethren described as the accuser of our brethren that's in revelation 12. we have other that's in revelation 12. we have other places where definitions are used judas places where definitions are used judas is a devil is a devil woman slanderers woman slanderers right right now point c original language meaning as now point c original language meaning as verified by bible usage verified by bible usage and i've listed there the hebrew terms and i've listed there the hebrew terms for serpent for serpent and also the greek one interesting when and also the greek one interesting when it comes to devil it's only a new it comes to devil it's only a new testament term it's not in the old testament term it's not in the old testament but they are distinct terms testament but they are distinct terms with distinct meanings although with distinct meanings although obviously they have a connection point d multiple lines of confirmation from multiple lines of confirmation from context that is the media versus around context that is the media versus around a passage a passage and cross references here's where your and cross references here's where your marginal cross references and your notes marginal cross references and your notes that you take from bible schools and that you take from bible schools and bible classes these are wonderful things bible classes these are wonderful things to have to have and and for examples here for examples here it's the serpent is a deceiver and an it's the serpent is a deceiver and an accuser it says so revelation 12 a liar accuser it says so revelation 12 a liar and a murderer from the beginning john 8 and a murderer from the beginning john 8 a lawless one from the beginning first a lawless one from the beginning first john 3 john 3 associated with human nature and you'll associated with human nature and you'll see that the equivalence of the numbers see that the equivalence of the numbers in john passage i'll talk about that in in john passage i'll talk about that in a moment a moment symbol of human nature the seed of sin symbol of human nature the seed of sin and you get that by the equivalence of and you get that by the equivalence of hebrews 2 and romans 6 and 8. hebrews 2 and romans 6 and 8. so you sort of jump around and you so you sort of jump around and you try to put things together to see if try to put things together to see if they fit they fit now there's this thing called inductive now there's this thing called inductive reasoning reasoning and deductive reasoning points e and f and deductive reasoning points e and f and it's basically how you approach and it's basically how you approach something whether it's from a set of something whether it's from a set of logic rules or whether there's a number logic rules or whether there's a number of cases that you do inference from of cases that you do inference from and the examples here under e and f the serpent is a creature used to illustrate the innate hostility used to illustrate the innate hostility of human nature toward god used to personify human nature in his various manifestations like other various manifestations like other references there references there and so i think that this serpent is the and so i think that this serpent is the basis for the devil you certainly and basis for the devil you certainly and for the for sin you get this in the for the for sin you get this in the numbers 21 passage john 3 hebrews 2 and numbers 21 passage john 3 hebrews 2 and roman 8 so there are passages that roman 8 so there are passages that you've encountered before you can see you've encountered before you can see that obviously none of these references that obviously none of these references overlap overlap and and inductively apparently deductively the inductively apparently deductively the temptation of jesus temptation of jesus it's from within you know he's tempted it's from within you know he's tempted by the devil doesn't say and yet we know by the devil doesn't say and yet we know from james 1 mark 7 from james 1 mark 7 that all temptation comes that all temptation comes from within from your own human lust and from within from your own human lust and so on so on so it's first the natural then the so it's first the natural then the spiritual that principle in first spiritual that principle in first corinthians 15. corinthians 15. [Music] [Music] point g point g reasoning from a demonstrably parallel reasoning from a demonstrably parallel situation situation jesus reasons jesus reasons against the pharisees that they are in against the pharisees that they are in fact murderers like their father the fact murderers like their father the devil in john 8. and paul is concerned devil in john 8. and paul is concerned that the judaizers are the serpent that the judaizers are the serpent beguilers beguilers in second corinthians 11. point h reasoning from a type or example jesus does this explicitly jesus does this explicitly he quotes moses raising up the serpent he quotes moses raising up the serpent in the wilderness in the wilderness as an example of him being raised up on as an example of him being raised up on the cross and the picture that this the cross and the picture that this conjures up in my mind is you have a conjures up in my mind is you have a dead serpent dead serpent on a pole on a pole and jesus equates himself with a dead and jesus equates himself with a dead serpent on a pole now the equivalency serpent on a pole now the equivalency between those two has far reaching between those two has far reaching consequences consequences which i don't propose to go into point i harmonizing with previously known or agreed upon texts and doctrines known or agreed upon texts and doctrines an example here an example here adam was the one that brought sin into adam was the one that brought sin into the world not the serpent the world not the serpent and not the devil and not the devil it's a it's a well established teaching i think romans well established teaching i think romans 5 12 says explicitly 5 12 says explicitly and and jay jay it doesn't conflict with established it doesn't conflict with established first principles first principles and this is a good one the illustration and this is a good one the illustration here is we know that god takes full here is we know that god takes full responsibility for all the evil that's responsibility for all the evil that's in the world in the world not sin but all the evil that's in the not sin but all the evil that's in the world world and i cited isaiah 45 7 which in the and i cited isaiah 45 7 which in the authorize is clear and amos 3 6 which authorize is clear and amos 3 6 which talks about is there not evil in a city talks about is there not evil in a city and there's a number of passages like and there's a number of passages like that god says i bring evil upon mankind that god says i bring evil upon mankind he does this in the context of duo he does this in the context of duo dualistic uh deities that the persians dualistic uh deities that the persians had a god of god a god of evil god of had a god of god a god of evil god of light a guarded darkness and god said light a guarded darkness and god said uh-uh there's only one god and i do them uh-uh there's only one god and i do them both both therefore therefore this is in the argumentation against a this is in the argumentation against a devil which is kind of a pseudo god devil which is kind of a pseudo god it isn't any devil running around that it isn't any devil running around that causes evil in the world god says he causes evil in the world god says he does so points a through j are some ways that you could you could identify valid evidence and string them identify valid evidence and string them together in together in an argument an argument and there are some basic general and there are some basic general approaches and i know virtually all of approaches and i know virtually all of them i got here except possibly the last them i got here except possibly the last one one have been discussed here at the bible have been discussed here at the bible school over the years this uh deductive school over the years this uh deductive versus inductive reasoning i know it's versus inductive reasoning i know it's been talked about who will forget been talked about who will forget brother todd treadway's explicit versus brother todd treadway's explicit versus implicit implicit classes classes techniques techniques asking the right questions asking the right questions this is something that brother whitaker this is something that brother whitaker presents in his exploring the bible presents in his exploring the bible using the right model using the right model this is a good example by david levin this is a good example by david levin let me illustrate because not all of you let me illustrate because not all of you would be familiar with that he said would be familiar with that he said you've got right doctrines and right you've got right doctrines and right behavior behavior and they're kind of on a teeter-totter and they're kind of on a teeter-totter with a fulcrum in the middle now which with a fulcrum in the middle now which is more important is more important right teaching right teaching or right behavior or right behavior how do you bounce up where you put the trick with this is it's the wrong model it's the wrong model that is the bible doesn't present truth that is the bible doesn't present truth that way as behavior and beliefs that's that way as behavior and beliefs that's true that belief and behavior are true that belief and behavior are together for they're not put in a together for they're not put in a balanced situation balanced situation truth is presented truth is presented as a tree as a tree all the fruits of the spirit up here all the fruits of the spirit up here it's rooted and grounded in love it's rooted and grounded in love so that's a model or the picture that so that's a model or the picture that the bible presents and so we although the bible presents and so we although it's convenient for us to have little it's convenient for us to have little models or pictures to help us understand models or pictures to help us understand we need to make sure that we are not we need to make sure that we are not introducing an introducing an inappropriate model or a skeleton or inappropriate model or a skeleton or structure or paradigm whatever term you structure or paradigm whatever term you want to use when we come to look at want to use when we come to look at scripture scripture now what i've done now what i've done is i'm now going to introduce a term is i'm now going to introduce a term that some of you will already know from that some of you will already know from my ezekiel study but it's a term i call my ezekiel study but it's a term i call goodness fit goodness fit that is that is how well does the conclusion you're how well does the conclusion you're proposing proposing or arguments you're proposing fit with or arguments you're proposing fit with other known information other known information does it fit the pattern is it the same does it fit the pattern is it the same as others as others does it ring true does it ring true and there's some uh corollaries to this and there's some uh corollaries to this one measure if this is true does it lead to confusion or inconsistency or or even to confusion or inconsistency or or even to an absurdity an absurdity that's one logical thing you can take that's one logical thing you can take someone's argument and syllogistically someone's argument and syllogistically go through the logic rules and end up go through the logic rules and end up with an absurdity or a known falseness with an absurdity or a known falseness you can say aha the conclusion is false you can say aha the conclusion is false therefore you go back and you knock out therefore you go back and you knock out the initial the initial premise and defeat a person's argument is the explanation unnecessarily complicated if it is and i find this in myself if i start start blathering on here and multiplying words blathering on here and multiplying words it shows that i've got a confused mind it shows that i've got a confused mind which is true which is true and and it shows that i don't really understand it shows that i don't really understand it that well it that well and when you find something that comes and when you find something that comes across complicatedly all the time across complicatedly all the time like it might be me it might be you but like it might be me it might be you but if all the time is that it sort of says if all the time is that it sort of says this probably isn't quite right this probably isn't quite right it's gotta be an easier way it's gotta be an easier way now i say that notwithstanding remember now i say that notwithstanding remember we had yesterday we had yesterday truth is complex it's got many angles truth is complex it's got many angles many approaches many approaches there's only one truth and that is there's only one truth and that is unchanging because god is one and he's unchanging because god is one and he's unchanging unchanging but the way we as human beings approach but the way we as human beings approach it or understand it it or understand it there's a motive to the ways there there's a motive to the ways there so so you can still find simple things and you can still find simple things and layer them on and come up with a complex layer them on and come up with a complex situation situation and finally is the interpretation and finally is the interpretation dependent dependent on information outside the bible itself on information outside the bible itself that's what i mean by extra biblical that's what i mean by extra biblical information it isn't extra bible information it isn't extra bible information it's information outside the information it's information outside the bible bible so so i can do my little comparison here now those of you who are here in the now those of you who are here in the introduction talk i will try in four introduction talk i will try in four minutes or less to describe when i'm minutes or less to describe when i'm trying to stay here this was some of the trying to stay here this was some of the conclusions that i conclusions that i determined after reading the determined after reading the columbus article looking for the true columbus article looking for the true landfall which is totally landfall which is totally inconsequential inconsequential but it's not a bad model for me but it's not a bad model for me intentions for this they just blew the intentions for this they just blew the other guy out of the water by saying other guy out of the water by saying that's obviously wrong you don't even that's obviously wrong you don't even have to consider that have to consider that they brought in an expert who was a they brought in an expert who was a biographer of columbus and he said biographer of columbus and he said there's one another place it's wattling there's one another place it's wattling he's a scholar he published the stuff he's a scholar he published the stuff he sailed through his bahama track once he sailed through his bahama track once and he looked at the ferris wheel and and he looked at the ferris wheel and that was good that looks good and we that was good that looks good and we brought it up brought it up and he assumed that the and he assumed that the going across the atlantic ocean that going across the atlantic ocean that there was negligible effect by wind and there was negligible effect by wind and current current and he just happened to be and he just happened to be an admiral an admiral he had two other he had two other guys in the same status as him guys in the same status as him so the case was so the case was shocked shocked until ordinary people until ordinary people came along and said came along and said that isn't right that isn't right for these reasons for these reasons and by the time it was all over their and by the time it was all over their proposal said proposal said we'll take columbus's law and translate we'll take columbus's law and translate it for herself and make sure we got all it for herself and make sure we got all the right-based information the right-based information they found independently two sources of they found independently two sources of the exact measure of the league in terms the exact measure of the league in terms of nautical miles of nautical miles they decided you have to account they decided you have to account for the current for the current and the league were addressed and the league were addressed i mean that's real life you can't say i mean that's real life you can't say it's in concept but so it is it's in concept but so it is so they took all their figures and they so they took all their figures and they just just adjusted them and they reconciled by all adjusted them and they reconciled by all the columbus sightings of attitude and the columbus sightings of attitude and multitude multitude they used computer simulation to break they used computer simulation to break up these numbers and also that these up these numbers and also that these masses he labeled with the ottoman masses he labeled with the ottoman square what probable forces were square what probable forces were and they sailed their proposals several and they sailed their proposals several times and they stopped and got out went times and they stopped and got out went in the island took the side into the in the island took the side into the from the uh beaches and dark places in from the uh beaches and dark places in the sand and see it right the sand and see it right they cross checked all of this from a they cross checked all of this from a certain crossface that was a common certain crossface that was a common ground to everyone ground to everyone and came up with this being an answer and came up with this being an answer plus plus what they're going to do what they're going to do is confirm by is confirm by building a whole black community building a whole black community starting off from the canary islands and starting off from the canary islands and sailing and seeing where they end up sailing and seeing where they end up they might hold us up on their eye they they might hold us up on their eye they don't know either but they're willing to don't know either but they're willing to go check out go check out and what i was trying to deduce from and what i was trying to deduce from this is this is just because it's imprint by scholars just because it's imprint by scholars doesn't make it right now this is not chevy work this is not chevy work don't get me wrong don't get me wrong and they did the right thing this was and they did the right thing this was the best information they had available the best information they had available and they fit a lot of the points to us and they fit a lot of the points to us no he went out in the chest he sailed to no he went out in the chest he sailed to the track the track that's all right but it turns out that there is a better way it turns out that there is a better way of looking at the situation of looking at the situation no we've got computers down here we no we've got computers down here we didn't have any computers back there i didn't have any computers back there i think we have simulation graphics but we got better tools so why not use them them truth invites investigation so he was truth invites investigation so he was something good something good he didn't have that before morrison did he didn't have that before morrison did not now they got some real issues they not now they got some real issues they got a critical piece of information that got a critical piece of information that was missing before was missing before one of the reasons why he didn't want to one of the reasons why he didn't want to make an adjustment that's a lot of hard make an adjustment that's a lot of hard work to go through every one of those work to go through every one of those daily sightings and translate and daily sightings and translate and reconcile it's a lot of work to do reconcile it's a lot of work to do he said negligible but it isn't so we he said negligible but it isn't so we got the tools to do that got the tools to do that hard evidence they went through several hard evidence they went through several times to do it check it out cross times to do it check it out cross reference nurture and what this reference nurture and what this in my mind is a demonstration of in my mind is a demonstration of goodness fit goodness fit this fits a lot better than this this fits a lot better than this with a caviar there with a caviar there maybe when they do it maybe when they do it from the original all the parameters are from the original all the parameters are the same the same they might even find a better sign they might even find a better sign not that it may seem a difference in not that it may seem a difference in that case that case so they're still willing to investigate so they're still willing to investigate the matter well now is where i'm going to get some now is where i'm going to get some participation from yourselves participation from yourselves this is why i wanted you not to turn this is why i wanted you not to turn over the sheet so if you've turned it over the sheet so if you've turned it over and are peeking at it over and are peeking at it turn it back over so you won't know this i'm going to apply this goodness fit model model to understanding some of the things in to understanding some of the things in the book of revelation the book of revelation so you ready and this is one of our guidelines what did the book did the book mean to the original recipients mean to the original recipients it's my general question it's my general question and and actually you don't have to answer a actually you don't have to answer a couple of these things here and these couple of these things here and these are going to be more rhetorical for the are going to be more rhetorical for the first part first part um um verse verse 11 in chapter one 11 in chapter one [Music] [Music] says that the whole book it isn't just says that the whole book it isn't just seven letters that were sent to the seven letters that were sent to the seven equation seven equation write in a book and send it to the seven write in a book and send it to the seven churches churches it was events that would soon take place it was events that would soon take place verse one in chapter one verse one in chapter one and that in fact the whole book and that in fact the whole book had to be understood and applied by the had to be understood and applied by the seven ecclesias is confirmed by seven ecclesias is confirmed by revelation revelation chapter 22 verse 16. chapter 22 verse 16. testimony for the churches all right the the evidence there the whole book is the the evidence there the whole book is relevant to the initial hears if the traditional continual historical approach is correct continual historical approach is correct then the original then the original recipient of the book recipient of the book his understanding of revelation would be his understanding of revelation would be the futurist interpretation right that's syllogistic logic and you can't get out of it but so what i mean what have i proven there all i've done is taken maybe a there all i've done is taken maybe a little point and said all right the guys little point and said all right the guys who first got it if everything is really who first got it if everything is really all future as demanded by continuous all future as demanded by continuous historical historical then they have a futurist outlook then they have a futurist outlook oh that says oh that says well of course well of course there's nothing wrong with a label there's nothing wrong with a label called futurist or praetorius or called futurist or praetorius or continue historical continue historical because you have any one of those because you have any one of those interpretations doesn't make you right interpretations doesn't make you right or wrong we just use it for convenience or wrong we just use it for convenience but sometimes and it's been in print but sometimes and it's been in print that they say whoever is a futurist that they say whoever is a futurist is bad is bad and they got all these connotations that and they got all these connotations that they built on it they built on it well well brothers and sisters the original brothers and sisters the original recipients if continue historicals right recipients if continue historicals right we're all futurists at the beginning we're all futurists at the beginning they had to be that's what logic will lead you to anyhow anyhow but much more relevant what but much more relevant what what information and here's where you what information and here's where you can participate can participate if you were a believer in ephesus if you were a believer in ephesus 21st century 21st century regardless of the date of this because regardless of the date of this because there's two of the 80 70 80 96 because there's two of the 80 70 80 96 because it's a time of persecution what it's a time of persecution what information would you have information would you have to understand this book when you got see to understand this book when you got see you got the book comes in you got the book comes in what other information would you have in what other information would you have in your opinion book stall or your home your opinion book stall or your home library to check this out you have people with a spirit and you find the inspired people around it could find the inspired people around it could help you check it out that's right apostolic input all right so there might be some people that will help you be some people that will help you understand it i'm thinking of some uh go through the 66 books of the bible starting from the new testament and starting from the new testament and there is one thing there that would there is one thing there that would probably and an event took place in apps where your an event took place in apps where your elders went to top elders went to top right acts chapter 20 right acts chapter 20 where paul tells them things that are where paul tells them things that are going to happen in the future going to happen in the future so if you got the old testament prophets so if you got the old testament prophets and if you got and if you got them on all the prophecy you got them on all the prophecy you got apostolic input from paul who's given a apostolic input from paul who's given a warning and he's got that in a letter warning and he's got that in a letter that he's written to you and he's got that he's written to you and he's got the advice to your elders who are there the advice to your elders who are there and you may have had timothy on her off and you may have had timothy on her off the spot the spot you've got a lot of things going for you you've got a lot of things going for you and and suddenly you get this book it's got suddenly you get this book it's got specific information for you and you're specific information for you and you're a pleasure you're the first one but the a pleasure you're the first one but the whole book how do you fit that information things shortly to come to pass things shortly to come to pass well i think well i think that their connection say with the that their connection say with the monolith prophecy and how jesus monolith prophecy and how jesus outlined that outlined that he talked he talked about a lot of things that appear in the about a lot of things that appear in the book of revelation book of revelation in a very abbreviated form in a very abbreviated form and one of the things he obviously and one of the things he obviously talked about in the mount of prophecy talked about in the mount of prophecy was the impending overthrow of jerusalem was the impending overthrow of jerusalem and all the ramifications of that and all the ramifications of that so one piece of information and you see so one piece of information and you see this in my notes this in my notes this might be a good point to consider this might be a good point to consider if you were a first century believer to if you were a first century believer to understand what this book meant understand what this book meant and may in fact help determine how we and may in fact help determine how we should date the writing of revelation should date the writing of revelation whether it was an early whether it was an early 80-70 date which would then allow for 80-70 date which would then allow for the fall of jerusalem interpretation or the fall of jerusalem interpretation or whether it was a later one whether it was a later one which interpretation better fits the which interpretation better fits the evidence now the second area we know that we know that revelation is a book of symbols if you were to pick one prophet one prophet or book in the old testament or book in the old testament that provides the most that provides the most clues clues or keys to understanding the book of or keys to understanding the book of revelation revelation but what would you but what would you choose i'll listen to some suggestions choose i'll listen to some suggestions daniel daniel and who is another another and who is another another ezekiel oh my do i like you uh ezekiel oh my do i like you uh daniel made lots and lots of diagnosis daniel made lots and lots of diagnosis and one lone ezekiel voice and you and one lone ezekiel voice and you weren't even at wilmington oh do i like weren't even at wilmington oh do i like you well it's so good because you're you're going to uh going to uh lead into my point here lead into my point here obviously daniel is a source i mean you obviously daniel is a source i mean you got the beast they come right out of got the beast they come right out of daniel and you've got the time periods daniel and you've got the time periods michael the archangel got these pictures michael the archangel got these pictures of angels the manifestations of the of angels the manifestations of the angels whether it's from chapter 1 or angels whether it's from chapter 1 or chapter 10 chapter 10 and by the way if you're not too and by the way if you're not too familiar with the contents of the book familiar with the contents of the book of revelation of revelation that doesn't matter that doesn't matter you don't have to know that to you don't have to know that to understand what i'm saying here but after that there's not a whole lot that daniel really says that daniel really says that is explicitly or even implicitly that is explicitly or even implicitly brought up in revelation except that brought up in revelation except that there's going to be a kingdom and so on there's going to be a kingdom and so on however however when you look at the book of ezekiel when you look at the book of ezekiel you start at chapter one two and three you start at chapter one two and three and suddenly you get whole chapters and suddenly you get whole chapters multitudes of references multitudes of references in fact my study on it there is probably in fact my study on it there is probably only five or six chapters out of 48 in only five or six chapters out of 48 in ezekiel that did not have a specific ezekiel that did not have a specific tie-in with the book of revelation and tie-in with the book of revelation and one real good example is john is in patmos in exile in exile ezekiel is in exile isn't he ezekiel is in exile isn't he we know what ezekiel's message is he's we know what ezekiel's message is he's outside the land outside the land writing to writing to people who are also outside the land and people who are also outside the land and what's his subject matter what's his subject matter the impending the impending fall of jerusalem fall of jerusalem the gentile overthrow the gentile overthrow the repentance and the restoration of the repentance and the restoration of israel he's caught up in the spirit of the lord's day you see all these visions of lord's day you see all these visions of the caribbean the caribbean he sees heavenly jerusalem later on he he sees heavenly jerusalem later on he sees this temple and sees this temple and just multitude of things just multitude of things john john [Music] [Music] writes to ecclesias who are outside the writes to ecclesias who are outside the land land and now this might begin to be the and now this might begin to be the pattern what pattern what can be what could be his subject matter can be what could be his subject matter it could be if he's patterned off of it could be if he's patterned off of ezekiel talking about the impending ezekiel talking about the impending destruction of jerusalem and the gentile oppressor in their repentance in their repentance and their eventual restoration and their eventual restoration and i think there is a much better and i think there is a much better goodness fit between ezekiel in goodness fit between ezekiel in revelation revelation than daniel daniel isn't inconsequential than daniel daniel isn't inconsequential don't get me wrong but ezekiel is a much don't get me wrong but ezekiel is a much better fit provides what i think a much better fit provides what i think a much better pattern and we will see this in a better pattern and we will see this in a moment or three moment or three conclusion of that point however is conclusion of that point however is there's a pattern there's a pattern that is helpful that is helpful just like the mount olivet prophecy has just like the mount olivet prophecy has at least two applications whether you at least two applications whether you take the whole prophecy take the whole prophecy and apply it twice and apply it twice first to the initial years and then to first to the initial years and then to the last days or only go through part of the last days or only go through part of it and say that applied to the first it and say that applied to the first century in the last part the last days that's the the praise here the book of the the praise here the book of revelation it's jesus prophecy in the revelation it's jesus prophecy in the book of revelation and there's all kinds book of revelation and there's all kinds of correspondences between the two we of correspondences between the two we would expect therefore to have more than would expect therefore to have more than one application of the book of one application of the book of revelation and ezekiel therefore revelation and ezekiel therefore supportive of the oliver prophecy which supportive of the oliver prophecy which makes that makes that [Music] [Music] dual application dual application a good fit a good fit now now here's something for you to answer here's something for you to answer in the book of revelation in the book of revelation who is the real enemy of the believer what does the enemy defined as being in the book of revelation the beast that's one candidate anybody else the beast persecutes the anybody else the beast persecutes the saints that's a good choice any other suggestions [Music] and i believe that's right it's in and i believe that's right it's in chapter 12. in fact the text says so chapter 12. in fact the text says so explicitly and the reason i felt that explicitly and the reason i felt that this was a fair question is we just went this was a fair question is we just went through all the references in the through all the references in the handout on the front side right what handout on the front side right what does it say it's talking about the war in heaven verse 9 and the great dragon was thrown verse 9 and the great dragon was thrown down that ancient serpent down that ancient serpent who is called the devil and satan who is called the devil and satan the deceiver of the whole world the deceiver of the whole world he was thrown down to the earth he was thrown down to the earth and he's described further in verse 10 and he's described further in verse 10 the accuser of our brethren has been the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down he accuses him day and night thrown down he accuses him day and night and how was this dragon devil serpent and how was this dragon devil serpent conquered conquered by the blood of the lamb by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony for and by the word of their testimony for they love not their lies even unto death now if you can get out of your mind whatever you think chapter 12 means whatever you think chapter 12 means because it's highly symbolic because it's highly symbolic you don't have a great red dragon with you don't have a great red dragon with these seven heads and horns and throwing these seven heads and horns and throwing down a third of the stars of heaven it's down a third of the stars of heaven it's obviously a symbol of something obviously a symbol of something but we got the text defining what it is but we got the text defining what it is it says it's the ancient serpent it's it says it's the ancient serpent it's the genesis serpent by the way it's the genesis serpent by the way it's called the devil oh it's also called called the devil oh it's also called satan it's the accuser of our brethren satan it's the accuser of our brethren and and [Music] [Music] this this is a symbol for sin isn't it this this is a symbol for sin isn't it so the real enemy in the book of so the real enemy in the book of revelation is revelation is sin sin where's sin dwell where's sin dwell right here right here that's the enemy that's the enemy the real enemy in the book of revelation the real enemy in the book of revelation it's always been that way from genesis it's always been that way from genesis is that way in the book of revelation why then do you think that someone would take revelation chapter 12 and not emphasize that point emphasize that point this is the first principle this is the first principle isn't it so they certainly could have understood it they certainly could have understood it that way in the first century we can that way in the first century we can certainly understand it that way and certainly understand it that way and alternative interpretations alternative interpretations and i'm going to speak whether they're and i'm going to speak whether they're right or wrong if they don't get this first principle emphasize and say here's the real enemy emphasize and say here's the real enemy not the beast not some political power not the beast not some political power not some not some perhaps arguable religious system that's perhaps arguable religious system that's not the enemy of the saints the enemy of not the enemy of the saints the enemy of the saints the enemy believers is the saints the enemy believers is yourself yourself that's what's covered in this book so what i'm saying if of all the chapters i think chapter if of all the chapters i think chapter 12 is one of the most symbolic ones 12 is one of the most symbolic ones but it defines itself but it defines itself i mean the definition is really clear i mean the definition is really clear there i think and we don't have to go there i think and we don't have to go outside the bible to figure out what outside the bible to figure out what this is talking about this is talking about it tells us itself but you might be thinking what about what about the heart the heart and the persecution of the saints and the persecution of the saints got the blood of the saints in her got the blood of the saints in her so it says so it says beast is also persecuted saints by the beast is also persecuted saints by the way way and the heart it is never said to be an and the heart it is never said to be an alliance with the beast although it alliance with the beast although it fornicates with it to the kings fornicates with it to the kings and there's this said about the the harlot and i'm going to cite some verses harlot and i'm going to cite some verses here chapter 17 verse 5 which is verse 6 saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and the with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of jesus blood of the martyrs of jesus and verse 24 and chapter 18 in her was and verse 24 and chapter 18 in her was found the blood of prophets and of found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who've been slain on saints and of all who've been slain on earth where must every prophet be killed must every prophet be killed according to according to jesus he said a prophet jesus he said a prophet it cannot be that a prophet die away it cannot be that a prophet die away from from [Music] [Music] jerusalem jerusalem matthew 23 verse 37 confirmed in luke 11 matthew 23 verse 37 confirmed in luke 11 verse 50 and 13 verse 50 and 13 now this great city in the book of now this great city in the book of revelation described in chapter 11 verse revelation described in chapter 11 verse 18 says 18 says actually verse 8 sorry chaplain forsake actually verse 8 sorry chaplain forsake and their dead bodies will lie in the and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city and this is street of the great city and this is where the two prophets were killed where the two prophets were killed chapter 11 the two witnesses the two chapter 11 the two witnesses the two prophets prophets lie in the street of the great city lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called which is allegorically called sodom and egypt allegorically called sodom and egypt allegorically called sodom and evil egypt you need to find sodom and evil egypt you need to find some place in the old testament where a some place in the old testament where a city is called sodom city is called sodom or egypt or egypt you might look at the reference in you might look at the reference in isaiah chapter one of that but in case isaiah chapter one of that but in case we couldn't find those it says we couldn't find those it says where their lord was crucified where their lord was crucified and what's the answer to that okay that was pretty easy and you're right right now regardless of any interpretation of now regardless of any interpretation of the book you've got these facts these the book you've got these facts these are facts are facts bible facts bible facts and you need to fit your interpretation and you need to fit your interpretation around them if you're just reading the book and you come to chapter 17 you come and you come to chapter 17 you come across across a woman verse 3 a woman verse 3 sitting on a scarf beast which was full sitting on a scarf beast which was full of blasphemous names and did seven heads of blasphemous names and did seven heads and ten horns and ten horns and john to see this is carried away and john to see this is carried away into the wilderness into the wilderness where if at all do you encounter where if at all do you encounter a woman in the book of revelation a woman in the book of revelation previous to this it's in chapter 12 and you left the woman in chapter 12 and you left the woman in chapter 12 fleeing into the wilderness fleeing into the wilderness so you pick her up again in chapter 17 so you pick her up again in chapter 17 as being in the wilderness and it's a woman you would think then there's an obvious you would think then there's an obvious connection between the two and there are connection between the two and there are so again any interpretation must make so again any interpretation must make that connection that connection how was the woman described how was the woman described in chapter 12 in chapter 12 well you take the symbolism of chapter well you take the symbolism of chapter 12 hold with son moon on her feet son moon on her feet 12 stars associated with her you know 12 stars associated with her you know where in the bible you start getting where in the bible you start getting that terminology and you can see again that terminology and you can see again there's at least an israel connection there's at least an israel connection there might be more but there's at least there might be more but there's at least that that now now one other thing one other thing when the harlot is destroyed in chapter when the harlot is destroyed in chapter 17 it's destroyed by the beast and the 17 it's destroyed by the beast and the horns says so in verse 16 they're horns says so in verse 16 they're devoured desolated burned with fire however in chapter 16 the great city is destroyed by the great the great city is destroyed by the great earthquake which splits it into three earthquake which splits it into three parts god remembers great babylon to parts god remembers great babylon to make her drain the cup of the fury of make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath his wrath now the question to ask now the question to ask are these destructions the same are these destructions the same or are they different if they're different then how do you account for the difference that is said is said to clearly represent rome because to clearly represent rome because of the seven hills characteristic of the seven hills characteristic rome is the only reasonable city that rome is the only reasonable city that has that characteristic has that characteristic and notwithstanding what some brother and notwithstanding what some brother has suggested that jerusalem when we sit has suggested that jerusalem when we sit in on his and he tries to scrounge over in on his and he tries to scrounge over seven that doesn't satisfy nearly enough seven that doesn't satisfy nearly enough is rome being probably the best is rome being probably the best candidate candidate reminding that interpretation of rome reminding that interpretation of rome being that characteristic being that characteristic i think happened many i think happened many years after the book of revelation was years after the book of revelation was said but seven hands represent seven hills represent seven hills they also represent seven kings or they also represent seven kings or kingdoms kingdoms since five are past one is and one is since five are past one is and one is future it goes on to say because the woman is seated because the woman is seated on the hills it's equivalent to many walkers which are interpreted in your text to which are interpreted in your text to mean mean peoples multitudes nations and tongues in other words the text in talking about seven hills is the text in talking about seven hills is not referring to topography at all not referring to topography at all it is not talking about seven literal it is not talking about seven literal hills these are symbolic of something hills these are symbolic of something and what are they symbolic of the text and what are they symbolic of the text says many waters that is people as says many waters that is people as multitudes nations and towns as distinct multitudes nations and towns as distinct from israel from israel these are gentiles these are gentiles well how does that fit with these 17 well how does that fit with these 17 year kingdoms five past year kingdoms five past it's not too difficult to find it's not too difficult to find five kingdoms or empires five kingdoms or empires are to run rome will be the one that is are to run rome will be the one that is and we start going backwards what would and we start going backwards what would they be they be you know persian you know persian right back in greece right back in greece [Music] [Music] all gentile oppressors all gentile oppressors one future one to come one last day one future one to come one last day application that we don't know application that we don't know and a critical point that is often not and a critical point that is often not perceived where is the harlot perceived where is the harlot seated which is on the beach right seated which is on the beach right on the back of the beach right on the back of the beach right wrong wrong it's on the hills it's on the hills but the nose are the hands but the nose are the hands the woman's on the heads the woman's on the heads where the horns are and that's what where the horns are and that's what destroyed her it is not a picture of a destroyed her it is not a picture of a harvest woman in control of the beast harvest woman in control of the beast but a heart of woman who is about to be but a heart of woman who is about to be destroyed by your lovers and that's a destroyed by your lovers and that's a very different picture very different picture the text says so this is not my the text says so this is not my interpretation so given those given those what is a goodness fit what is a goodness fit well let's look at ezekiel well let's look at ezekiel ezekiel says something about harlots ezekiel says something about harlots and the land being the mother of hearths and the land being the mother of hearths in chapter 16 in chapter 16 ezekiel says a lot about a harlot ezekiel says a lot about a harlot jerusalem being destroyed by her lovers jerusalem being destroyed by her lovers so there's at least two real clear so there's at least two real clear connections with that connections with that jeremiah 25 talks about a cup jeremiah 25 talks about a cup a cup of abominations a cup of fury that a cup of abominations a cup of fury that starts first with jerusalem starts first with jerusalem and is handed around all the gentile and is handed around all the gentile nations in babylon is the last one to nations in babylon is the last one to drink it drink it ah so there's a distinction between ah so there's a distinction between jerusalem babylon jerusalem babylon and that's right and that's right it certainly was historically it certainly was historically but it gives us a clue but it gives us a clue as to the two destructions of jerusalem as to the two destructions of jerusalem because if you've got a because if you've got a jewish occupied jerusalem jewish occupied jerusalem that's destroyed by her lovers as one in that's destroyed by her lovers as one in ezekiel ezekiel and the beast takes over and the beast takes over the throne of the beast is set up the throne of the beast is set up it's gentile occupied it's gentile occupied it's babylon babylon aspect then is now it's babylon babylon aspect then is now not jewish not jewish but gentile when christ comes back but gentile when christ comes back montevallo's montevallo's split split it is the throne of the beast that's it is the throne of the beast that's destroyed it's the gentile aspect destroyed it's the gentile aspect jerusalem and that's the chapter 16 jerusalem and that's the chapter 16 destruction there's other things that i could induce to that but basically to that but basically [Music] [Music] i think i'm one minute over time let me i think i'm one minute over time let me take one more minute here take one more minute here those are some facts to fit i think those are some facts to fit i think there's a goodness fit for jerusalem and there's a goodness fit for jerusalem and the harlot here but the point of it the the harlot here but the point of it the real enemy then real enemy then is not some system it's not a political is not some system it's not a political system it's not a religious system system it's not a religious system [Music] [Music] it's in ourselves jesus it's in ourselves jesus prophecy matthew 24 luke 21 matthew 24 3 prophecy matthew 24 luke 21 matthew 24 3 time says time says watch out for false prophets they can watch out for false prophets they can deceive even the elect deceive even the elect and i'm not trying to minimize that and i'm not trying to minimize that there are false religious political there are false religious political systems there are apostate people i'm systems there are apostate people i'm not trying to say there's not not trying to say there's not what i am trying to point out is the what i am trying to point out is the personal application to ourselves and personal application to ourselves and jesus and his luke 21 jesus and his luke 21 discourse put it this way discourse put it this way but take heed to yourselves but take heed to yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life this life and that they come upon you suddenly and that they come upon you suddenly like a snare for it will come upon all like a snare for it will come upon all who dwell upon the face of the whole who dwell upon the face of the whole earth earth in other words watch the real enemy in other words watch the real enemy yourself yourself how do you watch it how do you watch it watch at all times watch at all times praying that you may have strength to praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that will take escape all these things that will take place place to stand before the son of man to stand before the son of man you can turn over your sheets now and you can turn over your sheets now and see what i say