2 Corinthians 3 – 4

Transcript

um x yeah so uh jim asked me to give the x class a couple weeks back and i didn't x really have a particular topic in mind x back then but we're doing the readings a x couple sundays ago x and the reading was uh second x corinthians three and x four and that passage x really struck me i've read it many times x before um x but you know x trying to figure out what i was going to x do the class and i figured hey i want to x spend some time x in this passage so i spent the last week x and a half going through it x and focusing on those chapters second x corinthians three and four particularly x um now that that sunday when it was in x the readings i think it was august uh x september 7th and um ken and i were away x and we were with uh my in-laws so we x tuned into the cranston um memorial x service um x and it hadn't occurred to me that maybe x the brother in boston had actually given x an exhortation on that particular topic x which it turns out he had that's brother x steve i don't know if steve's on the x line tonight x um but he he gave a lovely talk x i looked it up on youtube and watched it x and um x you know x he he connected with that verse second x corinthians three verse two x um you are our epistle written in our x hearts known and read of all men and he x he connected that with something that i x think was brother bob lloyd had said x once i don't know if anybody remembers x what that was x i remember x oh he x hey steve x yeah what was it remind us x bob bob used to say that you are x sometimes the only bible other people x will read x yeah it's not isn't that wonderful um i x think that's such a great message and x that that really is the point of the x verse too it's it's x we should see the word of god operating x in the hearts of those who love him x that x you know because you know people not x might not have a x letter from paul or x you know they may not have read the word x of god um x so this is another way for them to get x it uh so it's such a perfect message to x connect with this verse um x uh brother steve i know i know you're a x bit of a current expert i think you gave x some classes at niagara a few years ago x and so i um x i didn't really mean to try over this x territory again maybe i'll get a x different take on it um one of the x things that i noticed in my reading of x 2nd corinthians was the theme of comfort x it kept coming up x again and again so i don't have a lot of x slides to share x this time around x but i'm gonna share one now x if i can x so um x you got that x we can x great x um x so this this this theme of comfort shows x up again and again in second corinthians x and so i've there's three greek words x that are related um the expression x paraklesis is often translated x consolation and excitation x um so i looked at all the places where x those terms are used throughout the new x testament x there's another expression the comforter x that john so jesus promises would come x after x he departs to the father he identifies x the comfort with the holy spirit in john x 14 x and um you know it's described jesus x himself as our advocate with the father x that's the same term in first john x um x there's somebody else whose name is x connected with this this term uh x comfort or consolation it's the the um x the apostle barnabas in acts 4 verse 36 x part of this means son of consolation x that's the kios para kalisi x uh i don't know if i said that right but x son of consolation so x you have all these ideas comfort x exhortation drawing close to wrapped up x in this expression x uh paraklesis herculeo x and um x paul sets the tone in chapter one uh he x uses his term x uh ten times between verses three and x seven i've gone through and highlighted x my bible just because it's like it's so x thick and densely packed in x to those introductory words to second x corinthians one verse three through x seven um and you might ask well why is x this message of comfort so prominent in x second corinthians x and if you recall first corinthians x uh is is a bit of a rough one that was a x tough letter for paul to write x paul hedge rebuked the occlusion for a x number of issues uh including x drunkenness at the memorial service as x you can imagine that x uh brethren suing one another at law x teaching that there was no resurrection x and and of course most notoriously this x issue of the ecclesia failing to handle x um a case of serious sexual misconduct x um x and paul writes about this in the second x letter uh in 2nd corinthians 2 x if you have your bibles open we'll be x going through a few passages here second x corinthians 2 verse 7 through 8 x he writes x about the specific individual who had x experienced church discipline x he says that steps should be taken to x restore that person x he writes x so you should rather turn to forgive and x comfort him or he may be overwhelmed by x excessive sorrow so i beg you to x reaffirm your love for him x so we see forgiveness and comfort and x re-affirmation of love is part of the x restorative process x paul is very clear when there's a x problem right he's not going to beat x around the bush when there's issues to x contend with first corinthians makes x that very clear x but he's equally assertive about x ensuring that that restored center x knows the breach has been closed the x relationship has been made whole again x and i think it's a really important x lesson for us to learn because x we must ensure that the the stigma and x the shame x do not linger x do not remain attached to the person x that's been restored in such cases x um so that's that's how other people x might see that person x but it's also important for the the x individual to realize uh that the guilt x um x it's no longer there it's forgiven x uh it can feel very easy for that person x to to have a sense of inadequacy x attached x um because of their history um x and and paul says you know there's x that one might be swallowed up with x sorrow that's not the intent x we don't want the the regret and sorrow x to destroy the person x um x so so just one more in in chapter seven x if you like a few pages over x uh paul once again addresses the x situation of his previous letter x uh second corinthians 7 verse 8 x for even if i made you grieve with my x letter i do not regret it though i did x regret it x before i see that the letter grieved you x though only for a while so x paul didn't want to have to write that x letter right he didn't want to have to x discipline the ecclesia x um it grieved him to do so but he x doesn't regret it x uh verse nine as it is i rejoiced not x because you were grieved but because you x grieved into repenting for godly grief x produces a repentance that leads to x salvation x uh verse 11 see what earnestness this x godly grief has produced in you but also x what eagerness to clear yourselves x what indignation what fear what longing x what zeal what punishment x at every point you've proved yourselves x innocent in this matter x uh it's giving down verse 13 x wherefore we are comforted and besides x our own comfort we rejoice still more at x the joy of titus because his spirit has x been refreshed by you all x so paul wasn't there to meet them in x person but titus was titus brings back x the good report x it's kind of a turnaround story in some x ways and and just imagine how relieved x titus must have been to go to corinth x and find that the corinthians had x corrected their issues think about how x relieved paul must have been to receive x that good report from titus x and so in some ways x this is a a letter of celebration x the crisis that paul had been addressing x in his first letter it could have played x out in a lot of different ways i could x have had a number of unfortunate x conclusions but it seems like the x outcome x uh was was very favorable in almost x every respect x it's not to say that paul isn't dealing x with any issues in the second letter x but there's a lot of comfort to be had x for those who uh heeded the first one x ben can i make a comment certainly x brazil x so there are a number of scholars that x think that there were x three letters that were written to the x corinthians have you looked at that at x all x uh no not too close x yeah so um x so the second one is the missing letter x right a lot of the scholars think the x missing letter was the was this um a x letter between first corinthians and x second corinthians x and this is what paul refers to in x chapter two x verse four x as his quote-unquote severe x letter and it says that he wrote it with x tears and anguish x and you know if you read through first x corinthians yeah it's challenging x but it's not like over the top x and i think that it's like in my mind x anyway i i kind of like the idea that x there was a letter in between the two x that's been lost x it was this severe letter and it's x almost like the pendulum has swung you x know like paul came down so hard on the x ecclesia x and now this third letter that we know x is second corinthians right he's just x like trying to comfort them bring them x back you know as a you know as a parent x who x disciplines his child you know you can't x leave the child crushed you've got to x sort of build this kid up again you know x and x if you've ever been at the receiving end x of uh a father's wrath right you know x you know how important it is for the dad x to sort of build you up again x and i think in my mind that's that's x what what's happening and i think you're x making a great point about all this x emphasis on comfort i'd not x really seen it displayed that way that's x a great slide x yeah thanks for that comment i i hadn't x really explored the the idea um x i had heard about that x so so in that case i would make second x corinthians really the third epistle x and yeah x a more severe one um interesting x in between yeah you know he wrote it x with tears and anguish it says in x chapter x two verse four x um x yeah so for what it's worth x yeah damn i'm gonna i'm gonna stop the x share at this point x um x may go back to it at some point but um x yeah i wanted to to you know just in the x vein of looking at this message of x comfort and education x um i wanted to begin by considering a x really ancient promise that was given to x the prophet jeremiah x and i think you'll make the connection x with the the verse in 2nd corinthians 3 x that we x just considered about uh you may be the x only bible someone reads and in jeremiah x 31 33 god says x this is the covenant i will make with x the house of israel after those days x declares the lord i will put my law x within them and i will write it on their x hearts x and i will be their god and they shall x be my people x and um you know as christophians as as x fathers of christ we love our bibles we x love them so much but if they do not x affect our hearts if they do not enter x into us and change our hearts x um x they're just words on the page aren't x they x so it's not enough for god's x commandments need to be written on stone x tablets as they were under the old x covenant or x printed with ink on the pages of our x bibles x um x [Music] x you know god's been trying to work on x our hearts for a long time x and scripture uses the analogy of a x craftsman to make this point so so think x about somebody um the tablets of stone x were written with the finger of god x right that's exodus 31. x um x i think that's such a neat picture that x god you know put the ten commandments on x tables of stone you know just through x the force of his his finger x um x and and in moses's time uh they might x have used chisels to work stone you can x think about the way that a chisel x directs x all the force of the hammer blow onto a x single cutting edge x to cut stone to cut a very difficult x material to work with x and nowadays we have uh x laser etching and we can use high energy x photons of light directed on on steel to x to make our mark um x and so i was thinking about you know x how x how the the children of israel were not x able to to bear the law of moses and you x know if you've ever worked with wood and x have the experience of x of a piece of wood splintering or x um you realize that the work piece x cannot always take the force that we x impose upon it right there there's a x there's an allegory there x and in some senses i i think that when x moses came down from the mountain and he x destroys the the tables of stone almost x represents the broken covenant x uh the ineffectiveness of the law x to make its mark on a stony human heart x um x god tells zachariah the prophet that x the people had made their hearts as an x adamant stone unless they should hear x the law x and zechariah 7 12. x the esv has um you know they made their x hearts diamond heart x right so what what's harder than a x diamond right there's not much harder x than a diamond they have x diamond drill bits you know for cutting x through very hard pieces of material x right usually it's the x it's the harder material that works the x softer material x so for us to have you know diamond hard x hearts x how can god work with that x he can't x so so we need to be transformed our x hearts need to be changed before god can x work on it ezekiel says well god in x ezekiel says that he will give a new x heart he'll give us a heart of flesh x ezekiel 36 27 x and i will put my spirit within you and x cause you to walk in my statutes you x shall keep my judgments and do them x and so that transformation of the heart x is what the new covenant is all about is x it x um the writer of the hebrews says that x christ mediates a new covenant that is x better than the old one x and speaking of a new covenant he makes x the first one obsolete and what is x becoming obsolete and growing old x is ready to vanish away x and so this is the context for what x we're about to consider x in second corinthians 3. x um x any questions or comments x yeah so i don't go ahead x no just i said it sounds good x all right x so in some ways you know this is a topic x that we we've covered before you know x it's well trodden ground x and yet it's x it keeps coming up right you know i i go x on the internet sometimes and read uh x messages and christian forums and people x want to know well are christians x supposed to follow the law of moses x isn't part of the word of god x and there's this phenomenon um i don't x know if this has always been going on or x if it's more it seems like it's more of x a recent thing this hebrew roots x movement with uh christians people who x follow christ going back and trying to x follow the law as much as they can and x i i don't really understand it i don't x know how we were expected to you know x follow the purification rituals and x sacrifices and things like that i don't x know how they reconcile that with acts x 15 the jerusalem x conference and x you know so many areas of teaching in x the new testament x and my intention isn't really to get x into that too much tonight x um x but x you know there are lessons to be learned x um when spirit works in our hearts x you know x the law talks about x leaving the corners of the field x unharvested so that gleaners can come in x and reap from them x so if i followed the letter to the law x very literally x that commandment wouldn't have much x meaning to me because i don't have a x field um x something but but there is some concept x that i could apply with respect to x leaving for others and so you know x obviously there's much that we can learn x from the love notes it's beyond even x realizing that it was the old way that x taught us about our own sin and taught x us about our own inadequacy and yet was x insufficient to save us and pointed x forward to the new covenant x um x you know even beyond that that lesson x there's a lot for us to take from from x the old testament and from the law of x moses x um x and i think it's important for us to x recognize that x the the pharisees and the people of x christ's time you know they had a hard x time dealing with this and there was x this whole concept of of of putting a x fence around the torah and and x you know making sure that we were so far x away from even violating god's x commandments um that's x you know tithing mints and cumin all x these things uh even the herbs got x got tied x um x but you know there was wasn't anything x to say well x how about 15 or 20 percent why are we x selling for ten percent which i think is x what the you know the new covenant x spirit says hey x god wants complete devotion he wants all x of us x um x so so there is anything wrong with the x law certainly it's just insufficient to x save us x um x [Music] x so x bringing this back to the second x corinthians i didn't want to get too x bogged down in that point but x in insights scripture in second x corinthians we're going to be looking at x how paul speaks about his credentials as x an apostle i i wanted to get to this x point i think there is a connection to x the way we think about um the law in the x new covenant we're going to get into x that in a few minutes um x but but paul seems to be being x challenged on his credentials to x instruct the corinthians x uh and to be a leader in the ecclesia x um and so the lawful thing for paul to x do x would be to speak in human terms without x his preeminent qualifications as the x apostles of the gentiles x um x but you really get the sense he doesn't x want to do that um if you still have x your bibles up in terms of second x corinthians 12 x in verse 11 x [Music] x and um x he says in second corinthians 12 11 i x have become a fool and glory x you have compelled me x for i ought to have been commended of x you x for nothing am i behind the very x chiefest apostles x though i'd be nothing x all right let me get the screen share x going again here x all right so this this bit about x commendation you notice in in x second corinthians 12 verse x 11 he talks about you know i ought to x have been commended of you x so this is the theme of commendation i'm x not going to share the slide right now x but it's the same thing it's it's one x that comes up in second corinthians over x and over and over again um so x in second corinthians 11 if you want to x go back just one chapter x uh verses 16 to 33 he he really lays out x his credentials as an apostle points to x the beatings the shipwrecks the perilous x journeys all these outward markers of x the sacrifices he's made as x uh demonstrating his complete devotion x to christ x [Music] x you wouldn't sacrifice everything the x way that paul had unless you were x entirely devoted um but but he says that x that thing again i speak as a fool right x second corinthians 11 verse 23 uh x because to highlight those markers of x his discipleship and his piety and his x devotion x it doesn't appear to be the most humble x thing to do x we have this expression nowadays we talk x about the people who uh virtue signal x and it's like they're they're they're x grandstanding uh their morals they're x showing how good they are uh but by the x things they do x and it almost reads like paul's friend x grandstanding this way x and he says i speak as a fool he doesn't x want to do that but his opponents the x people that are putting him down x who he hardly addresses directly in this x epistle um are kind of forcing him into x this position where he has to speak in x human terms about his his credential to x be a spiritual leader x isn't that x what crazy x what was the expression you use virtue x signature signaling x yeah i've not heard that it's just x it's like a humble brag x yeah kind of like that x yeah x um x so so that's that's where we are in x second corinthians three um when he's x talking about x do we need letters of commendation from x second corinthians three verse one x do we begin again to commend ourselves x or need we as some others epistles of x commendation to you or letters of x commendation from you x um so he's saying like well what do we x need to establish our authenticity as x apostles to to have some authority to x speak um in the ecclesia x um x you know so we actually use letters of x commendation inclusion today don't we x um when hannah and i joined boston i'm x pretty sure the reporting brother in x france sent some sort of letter vouching x for us x um x it was a very nice letter too x that's that's good to hear x um x there's some other examples x in the new testament of this right so um x max 18 verse 27 apollos x um x i don't know if this table is helpful x but the idea is to kind of outline it x and i want to compare x what paul says about uh his true x commendation x in terms of sender who's the senator who x received the letter who was the subject x of the letter and who delivered the x letter x so in acts 18 verse 27 you know apollos x is a new disciple he's he's come from x alexandria to ephesus where he learned x the truth x and now he wants to go to ikea and it x seems like x well the brothers and sisters in ephesus x basically sent a letter of vouching for x him x something similar happens in romans 16 x where where paul is commending phoebe x uh from the church at san crita x to the romans x and speaking on her behalf x so there absolutely is a precedent for x this x um x but paul uses the idea a little bit x differently he seems to point that x there's there's actually a higher ideal x to recognize individuals through x the transformative work of god's spirit x in their hearts x so just look at second corinthians three x verse two and three and let's read x carefully and think about the sender x receiver subject who's delivered it x because each of these x aspects are addressed in these verses x you are our epistle x there you go so x um x the epistle is the corinthian equation x themselves written in our hearts known x and read of all men so the receiver is x read by all verse 2 x in as much as you are manifestly x declared to be the epistle of christ x so it's a letter from jesus x ministered by us written not with ink x but with the spirit of the living god x not in tables of stone but in fleshy x tables of the heart x so this is really x what should have identified paul as as a x follower of christ an apostle a x trustworthy brother x to receive instruction by x it seems like paul had some opponents x who were saying you know we need to look x into this guy we need to make sure he's x on the up and up or he x on the level and x and paul's saying isn't x am i not recognizable to you as one in x whom christ is x working so i think it's really x interesting how he takes that sort of x natural idea that kind of i'm not going x to say fleshly or human thinking but x this this letter of recommendation x letter of combination sort of a natural x way of addressing this in human terms x and he he takes that he has a spiritual x angle um for kind of x addressing you know what my authority x should be recognizable this way x i think that's why i think that's why he x got the letter recorded x [Music] x so there's there's a loose analogy here x between x um you know kind of x what moses taught the people the lessons x we learned from the old covenant and how x we're supposed to think in the new x covenant x and um x you know just because x the old covenant is no longer binding on x believers today doesn't mean we go out x and do murders and we we teach children x not to hit x um or behave violently x before we ingrain in them a non-violent x character right so it's sort of the same x thing here when somebody x you know at the outset you know these x letters of recommendation they have x great utilities we see the first century x equation using them we use them today x right they serve our purpose x but we're supposed to grow beyond that x so we don't totally disregard the moral x teaching of the old covenant x but we're supposed to have our thinking x elevated beyond that x and that's x what paul hopes the corinthians would x see in him x that god's word was working in his heart x so i want to i want to change gears just x a little bit and x go to the book of exodus chapter 34. x please turn with me to exodus 34. x and so this this is a passage that takes x place after moses has come down from the x mounts x he's asked god to see his glory x um x god places him in the cleft of the rock x and passes before him and says x you'll see my back you can't see my face x but but i'll show you x um in some sense my glory x um x so moses comes down from the mountain x and his his face is radiant right to x such an extent that aaron and the people x are afraid x uh x exodus 34 verse 30 x uh when aaron and all the children of x israel saw moses behold the skin of his x face shone x and they were afraid to come near to him x and later in the story he dons a veil to x cover his face x and um x i would say and i think that this is a x passage that i may have x misunderstood in the past x because with a sort of a superficial x reading it'd be easy to make a x connection between x the veil as being intended to conceal x the radiance of moses's face x um perhaps because the people were x afraid right they saw his radiant face x he was glowing right think about like x jesus on the mountain transfiguration it x says his space glowed and his ramen x glowed and this was like x an awesome site it says something x similar about um x stephen uh x that he had the appearance of an angel x and we know how people are you know the x angels always tell him do not be afraid x there's something about the angel x there's something about stephen's x appearance there's something about jesus x on the mount of transfiguration that's x just x um unworldly you know kind of x supernatural radiance in some respect it x seems like that's what's happening x um x and so i think in the past i've read x this passage about moses's face shining x and him donning the veil to hide the x globe so the people wouldn't be afraid x but x while they were afraid of the glory that x was manifest in his face x i don't think that's why he donned the x veil um so let's let's take a closer x look at this x um x i think the the king james is actually x not that great here it says in verse 33 x that x till moses had done speaking with them x he put a veil on his face so to me that x kind of sounds like x you know he he put the veil on until he x was finished speaking with them x but you'll see pretty much every other x translation makes it really clear that x moses starts the veil after he's x finished speaking with the people it's x really important to understand for x paul's point in 2nd corinthians 3 to be x coherent x we'll look at how paul uses this in a x moment x but x you know x if you look at those alternate x translations of verse 33 um does anybody x have that would like to read yesterday x or niv x um x [Music] x gallery 33 in uh niv ben yes x yeah when moses finished speaking to x them he put a veil over his face x excellent can you read 35 as well or 34 x and 35 just keep going to the end x yep x um x but whenever he entered the lord's x presence to speak with him he removed x the veil until he came out x and when he came out x and told the israelites what he had been x commanded x they saw that his face was radiant x then moses would put the veil back over x his face until he went in to speak with x the lord x okay so x here's the thing it seems like it x happened repeatedly so first moses x speaks x unveiled with god x then the children of israel witness x moses unveiled radiant face x and then last of all only then does x moses dawn the veil until the next time x he speaks with god x so they they see the glory of god in the x face of moses there's no doubt about x that so why does he wear the veil i x think we have to go to paul's exposition x to understand this better x um x any questions on exodus 34 before we go x back to second conditions x all right so ii corinthians 3 verse 6 x paul identifies himself as minister of x the new covenant x um x holds that in contrast to the x administration of death he calls in x verse 7 x which was written and engraven on stones x i'm in second corinthians 3 verse 7 x interestingly enough when it said it x talks about the administration of death x that sounds really bad um written and x ingrained that word written is the same x as letter in verse in the previous verse x uh x the letter kills but the spirit gives x life x so the letter is what's written engraved x in stones x um x but the spirit is what gives life so so x paul's asking if the torah which came x with glory in verse 7 again so that the x children of israel could not look x steadfastly upon the face of moses for x the glory of his face which glory was x passing away x how shall not rather the ministration of x the spirit be with glory x um x so so this expression that the people x could not look steadfastly upon the face x of moses x no it might mean that they couldn't look x steadfastly on the face of moses like x they had to avert their eyes like they x couldn't make eye contact with moses x um x you know x i i don't think that's it because it x does say that they approached moses x presence when he was in glory and he x donned the veil afterwards x um x and i would say that x second corinthians 3 verse 17 x i'm sorry i got the reference wrong it's x verse 13. x so verse 7 verse 13 both talk about the x people um not looking steadfastly at x moses's face so let's look at verse 13 x now x moses would put a veil over his face so x the israelites might not gaze at the x outcome of what was being brought to an x end x um the king james version that was the x usb king jam says could not steadfastly x look to the end of that which is x abolished and so the same expression is x in verse seven it could not step fast x and behold x um so in both references it's clear that x the veil blocked their site that's why x they couldn't steadfastly hold the veil x blocked their site so they could not x exhibit uh they could not see the glory x that was passing away x so the veil represents x uh their blindness uh not to the glory x of god exhibited in the old testament x because that's what they saw in the face x of moses right they did see moses's x radiant face x so they weren't blind to that but they x were blind to the glory of god that x would be exhibited in christ x uh by the new covenant um that would x ultimately eclipse the glory of the x former government x um so so my conclusion looking at this x more closely um i don't know if this is x new for anybody else's um x not something i think i completely x understood before x but the this moses wore the veil because x he didn't want people to see the glory x fading from his face x and in paul's time the people it says x that even on to this day verse 15 when x moses is read the veil is upon their x heart x um in the previous verse 14 as well x their minds were blinded for until this x day remains the same veil untaken away x in the reading of the old testament x yeah x so so so there's some blindness x i think part of it i mean you know x taking us to x that's verse 18 right x we we have the open face we're beholding x uh as in a glass of glory of lord um i x think that's talking about like like a x mirror image right x the rv as reflecting as a mirror the x glory of the lord that's what we get to x see right so as glorious as moses was x he wasn't a mere image of god that's x what christ shows us um x you know we in exodus 34 he's just come x down from the mountain and moses had x asked x god to show show me x your glory and god says well you know x nobody can actually see me and live x and yet jesus teaches that the pure in x heart blessed are they x for they shall see god x how can they see god so so christ is x that that mirror reflecting who god is x and um x you know just it really is kind of x mind-blowing to consider that um x that we we can see god with with more x clarity than moses or anyone the old x covenant could and and i think that the x message about x you know are we in fact x reflecting christ are we being x transformed into the same image from x glory to glory even as by the spirit of x the lord right so that's that's where it x applies to us right we have to be x transformed into that and be mere images x ourselves x i mean x if we want to carry on in this vein i x mean x what paul brings us to ultimately by the x end of chapter four is that we look not x at the things which are seen but the x things which are x not seen the things which are seeing our x temporal things we're generating are x eternal and so x moses was looking to x see god um x you know the people were seeing x the radiance of moses face you know so x we're talking about x vision in a very literal sense right x using our eyes to observe something x but paul's talking about perceiving x something that's unseen x right and so that that's something that x happens through character that that's x that's that higher level that we have in x the new covenant x is seeing spiritualize uh what we can't x see with their natural place you know a x letter of commendation that's not a bad x thing it's a good thing to be able to x see with our eyes x that's what a letter of commendation x does in terms of identifying us to to x people who we might be strangers to x but really x um x the the true x identification of those who are who x belong to the good shepherd who who the x the shepherd recognizes x is his letter written in their heart x and so that's that's that higher level x of spiritual vision that we're trying to x achieve x through christ x yeah any other x comments x and the points to share this is such a x rich topic there's so so many different x ways you can go with this i love to hear x what people have to say